"Life of Caesar" Podcast: Episode 16
I can't stress enough how much my friend helps me with these! <3
This episode is all over the place. In preparation for the conference of Luca in 56 BC, Cam and Ray go back to cover the events at Rome while Caesar was away (58 and 57). But their minds are still stuck on 56, so even though they're describing events from, say, 58 (even saying things like "in June of 58"), they still perceive them as 56. Does this sound confusing? Exactly.
Episode 16:
• 03:58 – Cam: "He [Caesar] takes on the Nervii. Conquers them. Destroys them. [...]"
Ray: "[...] They are pretty much wiped out as a power for a foreseeable future."
The Nervii weren't destroyed. They will be a big part of the first rebellion in 54 BC.
• 05:12 – Ray: "So they [the Atuatuci] head home, but they're not heading home in fear just because the Nervii were wiped out almost to a man. For whatever reason, the Atuatuci are not afraid."
The Nervii weren't wiped out. And refusing to submit to Rome without a fight =/= not afraid.
• 08:24 – Cam on the siege tower: "They probably build them, you know, lying on the ground and the Atuatuci are like, 'What are these stupid things?' Until they stood them up and then they were like *scared noise*"
It wasn't built lying on the ground. The Atuatuci could see that the Romans were building a big tower, and they obviously guessed at its purpose. But the Romans were building it far away, and this was subject to ridicule. Until they began to wheel it up the ramp.
• 16:01 – Cam: "He also went after their religious objects."
Ray: "No! He's the Pontifex Maximus. He's gotta respect their religion. [...]"
Cam: "The same way he respected the augurs and the signs when Bibulus was using it to try and stop his legislation going through."
Ray: "Yeah, that was a good point. So all of them had sacred sites. . . And all these sacred sites had gold there. So as soon as this is all done, Caesar's like, 'Ok, where's your sacred site?' Boom, more money."
Cam: "Which was unheard of. Like, that didn't happen. And even... I remember when Pompey destroyed Jerusalem before this . . . and he went into the temple of Jerusalem, where they had all of their sacred artifacts and probably lots of gold, that kind of stuff. Pompey didn't touch it and this is after, you know, protracted battle against them. He said, 'No, no, this is to be protected. This is a sacred site. These are holy relics, we're not gonna touch these.' Caesar? Not so much."
a) "The same way he respected the augurs and the signs when Bibulus was using it to try and stop his legislation going through."
This episode is all over the place. In preparation for the conference of Luca in 56 BC, Cam and Ray go back to cover the events at Rome while Caesar was away (58 and 57). But their minds are still stuck on 56, so even though they're describing events from, say, 58 (even saying things like "in June of 58"), they still perceive them as 56. Does this sound confusing? Exactly.
This episode is all over the place. In preparation for the conference of Luca in 56 BC, Cam and Ray go back to cover the events at Rome while Caesar was away (58 and 57). But their minds are still stuck on 56, so even though they're describing events from, say, 58 (even saying things like "in June of 58"), they still perceive them as 56. Does this sound confusing? Exactly.Episode 16:
• 03:58 – Cam: "He [Caesar] takes on the Nervii. Conquers them. Destroys them. [...]"
Ray: "[...] They are pretty much wiped out as a power for a foreseeable future."
The Nervii weren't destroyed. They will be a big part of the first rebellion in 54 BC.
• 05:12 – Ray: "So they [the Atuatuci] head home, but they're not heading home in fear just because the Nervii were wiped out almost to a man. For whatever reason, the Atuatuci are not afraid."
The Nervii weren't wiped out. And refusing to submit to Rome without a fight =/= not afraid.
• 08:24 – Cam on the siege tower: "They probably build them, you know, lying on the ground and the Atuatuci are like, 'What are these stupid things?' Until they stood them up and then they were like *scared noise*"
It wasn't built lying on the ground. The Atuatuci could see that the Romans were building a big tower, and they obviously guessed at its purpose. But the Romans were building it far away, and this was subject to ridicule. Until they began to wheel it up the ramp.
• 16:01 – Cam: "He also went after their religious objects."
Ray: "No! He's the Pontifex Maximus. He's gotta respect their religion. [...]"
Cam: "The same way he respected the augurs and the signs when Bibulus was using it to try and stop his legislation going through."
Ray: "Yeah, that was a good point. So all of them had sacred sites. . . And all these sacred sites had gold there. So as soon as this is all done, Caesar's like, 'Ok, where's your sacred site?' Boom, more money."
Cam: "Which was unheard of. Like, that didn't happen. And even... I remember when Pompey destroyed Jerusalem before this . . . and he went into the temple of Jerusalem, where they had all of their sacred artifacts and probably lots of gold, that kind of stuff. Pompey didn't touch it and this is after, you know, protracted battle against them. He said, 'No, no, this is to be protected. This is a sacred site. These are holy relics, we're not gonna touch these.' Caesar? Not so much."
a) "The same way he respected the augurs and the signs when Bibulus was using it to try and stop his legislation going through."
Bibulus' "bad omens" were political theater, and they were made in violation of the established procedure. "Bad omens" had to be announced in person at the Public Assembly meeting. Whereas Bibulus was simply sending text messages about "bad omens" that he saw in the sky. Gallic sacred sites do not deserve to be compared to Bibulus' farce.
b) "Which was unheard of. Like, that didn't happen."
A surprisingly naïve outlook!
Let's start with a quote from Cicero:
b) "Which was unheard of. Like, that didn't happen."
A surprisingly naïve outlook!
Let's start with a quote from Cicero:
"For we have often seen temples robbed and images of gods carried off from the holiest shrines by our fellow-countrymen."
The looting of temples was a normal practice, especially in those towns that were taken by storm. And if the conditions of the war were difficult or the army received no financial support from Rome, it was impossible to avoid this.
The looting did not always take the form of bursting into the temple and taking everything of value. If a general sent a message to the temple saying: "I demand offerings equivalent to this amount of money to be delivered until this date," then this was also considered looting.
Sometimes a general would refrain from it and be praised for his kindness. But oftentimes, these objects were displayed in a triumphal procession as evidence of Roman might. And afterwards, they were displayed at his house, in the Forum, in the Roman temples, etc. And you can bet Pompey did that too. There were lots of confiscated objects in the Theatre of Pompey as a reminder of his military achievements.
By the way, Sulla looted the most respected Greek temples without any regard for them.
c) "I remember when Pompey destroyed Jerusalem before this."
Pompey didn't destroy Jerusalem. The walls of the city were destroyed, but not the city itself.
d) "He said, 'No, no, this is to be protected. This is a sacred site. These are holy relics, we're not gonna touch these.'"
There is no such quote in the sources.
Pompey disrespected the Jews by entering the temple. It was forbidden to him and it was unprecedented. But this was his last operation in the East and he had already confiscated all of Mithridates' possessions. He could afford not to loot the temple.
• 17:34 – Ray: "He has come a long way to paying off a lot of his debt. But he is still not there, which gives you an idea truly of how much debt he had built up over his lifetime on his way to becoming consul of Rome. Just staggering amounts of money that he owned. [...]"
Cam: "I don't think he even scratched the surface of it yet. I mean he's been borrowing money his entire adult life to fund his career."
Appian says that at the time of his praetorship, Caesar was 25,000,000 sestercii in debt. But this was before the Lusitanian campaign that surely improved his finances. And now he has three successful campaigns in Gaul. Considering his future spending, it's safe to assume that he has already paid off his debts. Just two years later, he will start massive building projects in Rome. According to Cicero, merely purchasing the land cost 60,000,000 sestercii.
Israel Shatzman has a detailed analysis of the senatorial wealth, and he thinks that Caesar's income in Gaul "amounted to hundreds of million of denarii." Although he wasn't a hoarder and his expenditure was equally high as he put that money into building his political influence.
• 18:37 – Cam: "We need to go back to Rome. 'Cause back in Rome whilst Caesar's been away... You thought shit was crazy at Rome while Caesar was there? Oh my God. It is gone bananas. . . To give us some perspective of how topsy-turvy Rome is... Probably Caesar's number one critic. Well, he's got two major critics, has he? Cato and Cicero. Cicero now declares a 15-day public thanksgiving. I mean, the Senate grants it to him, but Cicero gives this long and eloquent speech to say, 'Caesar is magnificent. No one has ever accomplished anything near like Caesar has accomplished in Gaul. We need to give him this thanksgiving,' which is longer than even any of Pompey's three triumphs, which kind of annoys Pompey. Now, the question, Ray, is what's happened in the interim to Cicero, where he's gone from being Caesar's No. 1 vocal critic to his No. 1 vocal supporter? What could have possibly happened?"
Ray: "Right. So Cicero goes from 59 BC to questioning the triumvirate and all the freedoms and rights that people are losing, just two years later, in 57 BC, by saying, 'The sun doth shine from Caesar's anus.'"
a) "Probably Caesar's number one critic. Well, he's got two major critics, has he? Cato and Cicero."
Cicero was critical of Caesar (especially during the latter's consulship), but not his top critic. That would be someone like Cato, Catulus, or Bibulus. Cicero's relationship with Caesar is a bit more complicated at this point.
b) "Cicero now declares a 15-day public thanksgiving. I mean, the Senate grants it to him, but Cicero gives this long and eloquent speech to say, 'Caesar is magnificent. No one has ever accomplished anything near like Caesar has accomplished in Gaul.'"
b) "Cicero now declares a 15-day public thanksgiving. I mean, the Senate grants it to him, but Cicero gives this long and eloquent speech to say, 'Caesar is magnificent. No one has ever accomplished anything near like Caesar has accomplished in Gaul.'"
Cicero did propose a public thanksgiving for Caesar's victories in Gaul, but we don't have any speeches on it. This was in 57 BC.
The speech that Cam and Ray are referring to was called "On the Consular Provinces" and was given in May of 56. Domitius Ahenobarbus desperately craved the command in Gaul and wanted to replace Caesar. Cicero talked of Rome's history with Gaul and praised Caesar for trying to bring Gaul under Roman control, urging the Senate to allow him to finish the job.
But as the name indicates, Caesar wasn't the only topic of this speech. In it, Cicero also spoke out against Aulus Gabinius and Calpurnius Piso (Caesar's father-in-law), and as a result, Piso lost his province. Cicero also praised Pompey's achievements in the East.
c) "he's gone from being Caesar's No. 1 vocal critic to his №1 vocal supporter."
Just because he supported a couple of measures favoring Caesar doesn't make him his No. 1 supporter.
d) "and all the freedoms and rights that people are losing"
The support of the people was Caesar's main source of strength! The only ones who were unhappy with the triumvirate were other powerful dudes.
• 20:45 – Ray: "When Caesar gets voted this 15-day of thanksgiving, Pompey is actually for the first time starting to actually say something when people say, 'We need to recall Caesar, we need to recall Caesar. Obviously the war's over, he's kicking everybody's butt.' Pompey's been silent. He's not being happy, but he's been silent. And now he's probably going, 'Yeah, yeah, we should call him back. He's done enough work for Rome. Let's give him a break.' So Pompey is now just a little bit starting to say, 'Yes, we need to recall Caesar as well,' because this man is not happy. All his military glory is being overshadowed by what Caesar is doing and has done in the last two years."
The source for Pompey's story is Cassius Dio. This was at the beginning of 56 BC.
I think it's too simplistic to say that Pompey was only worried about military glory. He was worried about Caesar's growing power in general. For the longest time, Pompey was his superior, and he wanted it to stay that way.
• 22:55 – Cam: "But Cicero is remembered today for his eloquence, not only in his speeches, but in his writing and in his Latin. And in fact the entire Renaissance, 14th century Renaissance was based on Petrarch's rediscovery of Cicero's letters. And, you know, the humanism, our understanding of classical Roman culture and Greek culture, all of these things came from the survival of Cicero. . . . Cicero's Latin is still considered the most beautiful writing. It's been a force in the last 2000 years. So Cicero is one of the most important characters in all of human history."
It's important to keep in mind that the majority of our knowledge about the Late Roman Republic comes from Cicero. We have hundreds upon hundreds of his letters, a few dozen of his philosophical works and speeches. His point of view dominates our knowledge about this period.
Unpopular (?) opinion: Cicero is a chore to get through. There, I said it.
• 25:58 – Cam: "I'm gonna read something from one of my books. I can't remember where this was, but this isn't me. . . 'He saw adventurous pushing themselves into office by steeping themselves in debt, and paying their debts by robbing the provincials. He saw these high-born scoundrels coming home loaded with treasure, buying lands and building palaces. And, when brought to trial, purchasing the consciences of their judges. All this Cicero knew, and yet he persuaded himself that it can continue without bringing on a catastrophe. He saw his fellow senators openly bribed; he saw the elections become a mere matter of money.' So he had seen this, he tried to argue against some of these things. But it was spiraling out of control."
a) This is James Anthony Froude. But for some reason, Cam switched the order of the sentences. It feels out of context because Froude is not an admirer of Cicero and this passage was meant to be critical of him.
So, Cicero saw all of this, and "yet he persuaded himself that it can continue without bringing on a catastrophe." He's being willfully naïve.
b) Cicero defended some of these scoundrels who robbed the provincials. Like Gaius Antonius. He's just one example.
Buying land and building palaces? Well, Cicero owned over 20 estates and houses. The self-awareness of this man...
Cicero also sold tens of thousands of people into slavery during his proconsulship.
What I'm trying to say is that there are no good guys in this story. Every one of them was a bastard in some way.
• 28:07 – Cam: "By the way, he's still got Crassus and Pompey there. The other two legs of the triumvirate that he's sort of frenemies with."
I would argue that Crassus wasn't his frenemy. He was as close to a friend as was possible between two powerful men. Crassus was someone Caesar could trust pretty safely. And vice versa.
• 29:19 – Cam on Clodius: "He is the youngest son of Appius Claudius, who was consul in 79 BC and then governor of Macedonia from 78 to 76 BC after his consulship. He came from, you know, the Claudii. The Claudii were patrician family. In fact, they were a very highly esteemed in many ways, long, great patrician house. Had been in the heart of the Republic for generations, more so than the Julii. Had a long history of consuls, famous statesmen. So this guy was born into tradition of wealth and power."
a) Appius Claudius Pulcher received the proconsulship of Macedonia in 78 BC, but he couldn't go because of health problems. In 77 BC, he was an interrex in Rome. He left to govern Macedonia some time that year, but in 76 BC he got sick and died.
b) The Claudii were one of the greatest patrician houses, but it's worth noting that after the death of Appius Claudius, their financial situation was not great. The third daughter had to be married off without a dowry. So even though Clodius enjoyed the prestige of the family name, his wealth wasn't that great.
• 30:03 – Cam: "But he [Clodius] was batshit crazy. You know how later on in the Roman Empire, the further you go into it, apart from the occasional sane emperor, most of them just become just increasingly batshit crazy. This is Clodius, man. . . We've mentioned him before with the Bona Dea incident. So, remember this religious festival, women-only, it's happening in Caesar's house. Clodius dresses up as a woman, sneaks in to have an affair with Caesar's wife, during the holies of holy religious festivals, gets caught. He's charged, he's prosecuted. . . . That's Clodius, right. Like, who does that? Like, seriously? Who does that?"
a) Most Roman emperors were not crazy. And certainly not "the further you go into it." The most infamous ones were Caligula and Nero. Both came from the very first imperial dynasty of Rome. But Nero wasn't crazy. Caligula… maybe. Though Anthony Barret makes a strong case that Caligula was not insane. Bad emperor =/= crazy. The only mentally ill emperor after Caligula was Elagabalus. He ruled from AD 218 to 222.
b) "Who does that?"
If men dressed in women's clothes were allowed to attend the smaller private celebrations in honor of the Bona Dea, then Clodius' mistake was simply in crushing the party at the wrong house (the Vestals were performing sacrifice pro populo in Caesar's house).
I'll copy an excerpt from Mulroy's article that I posted in episode 8.
• 31:34 – Cam: "So, I got this other quote. This is from a book somewhere. 'Clodius is the most extraordinary figure in this extraordinary period. He had no character. He had no distinguished talent save for speech; he had no policy; he was ready to adopt any cause or person which for the moment was convenient to him; and yet for five years this man was the omnipotent leader of the Roman mob. He could defy justice, insult consuls, beat the tribunes, parade the streets with a gang of armed slaves, killing persons disagreeable to him; and in the Senate itself he had his high friends and connections who threw a shield over him when his audacity had gone beyond endurance. We know Clodius only from Cicero; and a picture of him from a second hand might have made his position more intelligible, if not more reputable. Even in Rome it is scarcely credible that the Clodius of Cicero could have played such a part, or that the death of such a man should have been regarded as a national calamity.'"
This is Froude again. Cam cut off the quote before Froude finished his thought. His point was not, "Look at Clodius' antics!" It was to question Cicero's portrayal of Clodius.
Catiline was Cicero's boogeyman. His go-to example whenever he wanted to vilify someone.
Of course, I don't think that Clodius was innocent. He was a troublemaker and contributed a lot to the anarchy of the 50s BC. He definitely abused the use of violence. But I don't think he was mentally ill (it wouldn't surprise me if some of his antics were deliberate and calculated). I believe he was quite sane, but with little regard for boundaries.
• 34:12 – Cam: "He [Clodius] was involved in the Third Mithridatic War under his brother-in-law Lucullus. . . But he didn’t feel like he was getting sufficient respect, so he stirred up a revolt."
Mulroy gives an interesting analysis of this, too. The insubordinate legions were the ones who served under Flaccus and Fimbria before. They've been serving since 86 BC when Marius and Sulla were still alive!
• 34:28 – Cam: "And then he [Clodius] got captured by pirates. . . . The pirates sought ransom. . . They went to Ptolemy of Cyprus, the king of Cyprus. . . . The pirates go to the king of Cyprus and says, 'We've got this Clodius guy. Give us some ransom.' Ptolemy says, 'I'll give you five bucks.' I don't know what the sum was, but apparently the sum was so trivial and so insulting that the pirates thought it was hilarious and they let Clodius go without any money. They just thought it was hilarious that he was considered so invaluable."
This is Strabo's version of events:
Whereas Cassius Dio says that Ptolemy didn't pay at all:
Dio also says that the pirates released Clodius out of fear of Pompey:
Dio's version sounds more realistic, imo.
By the way, Cicero claimed that the pirates raped Clodius and listed it as one of his sins. Because rape is the fault of the victim? Classy Cicero.
• 36:54 – Cam on Clodius transferring to a plebeian: "This was highly illegal. You can't renounce your patrician rank. Well, look, there were certain circumstances where you could do this, but this wasn't one of them. This wasn't like something you could just do. . . . In certain situations, if you were maybe a young patrician and you had no family, an older plebeian could adopt you. But you had to change your name to his name. It was proper, legit, legal thing. But this was not, this was like a complete farce. Even at Rome at the time, it was argued for years later that it was a complete farce, shouldn't have happened, it was highly illegal."
Clodius' adoption was of dubious legality, but Cam can't explain why. Here's why:
"It was argued for years" is an exaggeration, though. Of course, Cicero never failed to throw it at Clodius' face, but his adoption was seriously argued only in 58 and 56 BC.
• 39:37 – Ray: "When Clodius wasn't banging his three sisters..."
This was political slander. We have no idea if there was any truth in it.
• 39:58 – Ray: "He [Clodius] reorganizes the State's supply of grain . . . from now on the people of Rome, the poor people, are gonna get a regular dole of grain provided by the State. So this is unheard of."
In the past, there were laws of similar nature. For example, one of Gaius Gracchus's laws stipulated a monthly distribution of grain at a lower price. And Cato suggested a free distribution to calm down the crowd during the Catilinarian debacle. But Clodius took it even further.
• 40:28 – Ray: "And then he [Clodius] says to the– he restricts the censors from being able to expel senators willy-nilly. So if you were a senator and you were getting up in age, one of the great honors that might be handed to you is to be a censor. And one of the things you could is you'd make su– you'd go through all these senatorial rolls and make sure everybody, who is in the Senate qualifies as [can't make out the word], and they're not doing anything to embarrass the Senate too much."
a) Censorship was not "handed to you." Censors were elected just like all other magistrates.
b) "he restricts the censors from being able to expel senators willy-nilly"
Ray didn't explain what these restrictions were.
Pompey will repeal this in his third consulship in 52 BC. Subsequently, one of the newly elected censors will proceed to eliminate men associated with Caesar from the Senate.
• 41:44 – Ray: "But Clodius is determined, he is going to get back at Cicero for killing those people [the Catilinarians], because it was considered un-Roman at the time."
It wasn't simply un-Roman, it was straight-up illegal. You couldn't execute Roman citizens without a trial, which is what Cicero had done.
But that's not the reason for Clodius' animosity. Cicero ruined his alibi during the Bona Dea trial. If Clodius had been found guilty, he would've been forced into exile. So Clodius was pissed at Cicero and wished to pay him back.
• 41:57 – Ray: "And Caesar says to Cicero, 'Look, I'm about to head off to my province, why don't you become a legate in my army. You'll have imperium, you'll have my protection, and Clodius cannot touch you.' And as you said a couple of minutes ago, Cam, that Cicero, for all his faults, he was a very vain man, but he was honorable and he saw this as, maybe, as a coward's way out or whatever. And he said, 'No, I'm not gonna take that way out.'"
This is a rehash of what's been said in episode 11.
a) Cicero wouldn't have the imperium. The reason he would be free from prosecution is because lex Memmia protected anyone who was away in the service of the state.
b) He said no to Caesar because he thought that Pompey and the optimates would protect him.
c) He eagerly accepted the triumvirs' help to return.
His behavior is understandable. I just disagree that there was anything honorable about it. Judge for yourself: he executed the Catilinarians and proclaimed himself a savior of the state. When the optimates began a concentrated attack on the triumvirs in 59 BC, he was gleefully watching the spectacle and jumped on the bandwagon to add to it. But then Clodius appeared on stage, and Cicero quickly backtracked on his words. When the optimates dropped him, Cicero blamed everyone around him. After his return from exile, he had to justify his friendly relations with the triumvirs in lengthy monologues. It's all pretty banal and pathetic.
• 44:25 – Cam: "But Pompey at this stage isn't having a good run either. You know, Pompey has– he can't turn a trick at this stage. He is certainly probably got a bit of fame left over from his previous military successes and his period as consul. He's got some wealth, but there is a lot of anger being stirred up by the masses against him. And even Clodius at this stage is starting to turn– oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, he changed his name from Claudius to Clodius, when he became a plebeian. That's why we call him Clodius and not Claudius. So, you know, Pompey is not really in a position to save Cicero at this stage, even if he wanted to. And, you know, he does actually, not too long after this, try and get some legislation through to get Cicero back and it gets voted down, gets vetoed."
a) This is the first half of 58 BC! Pompey returned from the East in 61. His fame and wealth are perfectly fine!
b) "there is a lot of anger being stirred up by the masses against him"
This is March of 58! Pompey's problems will begin at the end of 57. Nothing prevented him from helping Cicero at this stage. Pompey's unreliability is important to the story, especially later on. There is a whole list of people whom he dropped when it suited him. Bruce Marshall has a nice little article that covers some of this.
c) "he changed his name from Claudius to Clodius, when he became a plebeian."
He changed his name to Clodius years before his adoption. Already in 61 BC, Cicero called him Clodius.
d) Cam makes it sound as though Pompey personally prepared a legislation to get Cicero back. It wasn't his proposal. One of the tribunes proposed it in June of 58. Pompey supported it.
• 46:37 – Ray: "You can't berate him [Cato], you can't intimidate him, because God knows Caesar tried and it didn't work."
Caesar lost his temper with Cato (when the latter was filibustering for hours) only once. Apart from that incident, Caesar never tried to berate or intimidate Cato. It would simply be a waste of time because Cato was unmovable.
• 46:52 – Ray: "Cyprus is about to be incorporated into the Republic, but Cyprus is gonna bring such a huge load of money that it's very important– because remember they don't have all the public land that they did before, because of Caesar's land bill. There is a lot of veterans living on that now. So Rome– the State is not bringing in the money it once did from all this land, so they have to have other money. So they've got this huge wonderful deal that's going to bring huge diffidence, but because it's all about money, they need the most honest senator or Roman politician they can possibly find to go to Cyprus and oversee this and hey, who is there, when he's sober, more honest than Cato?"
a) "There is a lot of veterans living on that now."
Not just the veterans. A lot of people from the urban poor received land as well.
b) The revenue from the Campanian land (before distribution) was significantly less than what the Treasury received from the provinces, especially the Eastern ones. So it's not like Rome's treasury was in desperate need of the Campanian land revenue. The problem was that the optimates wanted to have a source of revenue in Italy itself, not just in the provinces (who are always at risk of rebellion). But even more than that, they simply resented the fact that Caesar was able to push through his legislation despite the Senate's opposition.
A bit off-topic, but not really… In one of the "Assassin's Creed" games that takes place in Alexandria, they make Brutus kill Caesar with the words "land to the people." What a f---ing joke. Caesar gave land to the people. Not the Senate and certainly not Brutus. Both in his consulship and his dictatorship, land distribution was one of the cornerstones of Caesar's policy.
c) Cato's honesty was the reason given for his appointment to get him out of Rome. But it's worth noting that this wasn't a bad deal for him.
d) As for Cato's honesty in practice... In episode 7, I posted Drogula's argument that Cato had embezzled money in Cyprus, so this time I'll post Stewart Irvin Oost.
Just because he supported a couple of measures favoring Caesar doesn't make him his No. 1 supporter.
d) "and all the freedoms and rights that people are losing"
The support of the people was Caesar's main source of strength! The only ones who were unhappy with the triumvirate were other powerful dudes.
• 20:45 – Ray: "When Caesar gets voted this 15-day of thanksgiving, Pompey is actually for the first time starting to actually say something when people say, 'We need to recall Caesar, we need to recall Caesar. Obviously the war's over, he's kicking everybody's butt.' Pompey's been silent. He's not being happy, but he's been silent. And now he's probably going, 'Yeah, yeah, we should call him back. He's done enough work for Rome. Let's give him a break.' So Pompey is now just a little bit starting to say, 'Yes, we need to recall Caesar as well,' because this man is not happy. All his military glory is being overshadowed by what Caesar is doing and has done in the last two years."
The source for Pompey's story is Cassius Dio. This was at the beginning of 56 BC.
"[Pompey] attempted to persuade the consuls not to read Caesar's letters immediately but to conceal the facts as long as possible, until the glory of his deeds should win its own way abroad, and furthermore to send some one to relieve him even before the regular time."
I think it's too simplistic to say that Pompey was only worried about military glory. He was worried about Caesar's growing power in general. For the longest time, Pompey was his superior, and he wanted it to stay that way.
• 22:55 – Cam: "But Cicero is remembered today for his eloquence, not only in his speeches, but in his writing and in his Latin. And in fact the entire Renaissance, 14th century Renaissance was based on Petrarch's rediscovery of Cicero's letters. And, you know, the humanism, our understanding of classical Roman culture and Greek culture, all of these things came from the survival of Cicero. . . . Cicero's Latin is still considered the most beautiful writing. It's been a force in the last 2000 years. So Cicero is one of the most important characters in all of human history."
It's important to keep in mind that the majority of our knowledge about the Late Roman Republic comes from Cicero. We have hundreds upon hundreds of his letters, a few dozen of his philosophical works and speeches. His point of view dominates our knowledge about this period.
Unpopular (?) opinion: Cicero is a chore to get through. There, I said it.
• 25:58 – Cam: "I'm gonna read something from one of my books. I can't remember where this was, but this isn't me. . . 'He saw adventurous pushing themselves into office by steeping themselves in debt, and paying their debts by robbing the provincials. He saw these high-born scoundrels coming home loaded with treasure, buying lands and building palaces. And, when brought to trial, purchasing the consciences of their judges. All this Cicero knew, and yet he persuaded himself that it can continue without bringing on a catastrophe. He saw his fellow senators openly bribed; he saw the elections become a mere matter of money.' So he had seen this, he tried to argue against some of these things. But it was spiraling out of control."
a) This is James Anthony Froude. But for some reason, Cam switched the order of the sentences. It feels out of context because Froude is not an admirer of Cicero and this passage was meant to be critical of him.
"The Senate was the official power; the armies were the real power; and the imagination of the Senate was that after each conquest the soldiers would be dismissed back into humble life unrewarded, and added new millions to the their fortunes. All this Cicero knew, and yet he persuaded himself that it can continue without bringing on a catastrophe. He saw his fellow senators openly bribed; he saw the elections become a mere matter of money. He saw adventurous pushing themselves into office by steeping themselves in debt, and paying their debts by robbing the provincials. He saw these high-born scoundrels coming home loaded with treasure, buying lands and building palaces. And, when brought to trial, purchasing the consciences of their judges. Yet he had considered such phenomena as the temporary accidents of a constitution which was still the best that could be conceived, and every one that doubted its excellence of it he had come to regard as an enemy of mankind."
So, Cicero saw all of this, and "yet he persuaded himself that it can continue without bringing on a catastrophe." He's being willfully naïve.
b) Cicero defended some of these scoundrels who robbed the provincials. Like Gaius Antonius. He's just one example.
Buying land and building palaces? Well, Cicero owned over 20 estates and houses. The self-awareness of this man...
Cicero also sold tens of thousands of people into slavery during his proconsulship.
What I'm trying to say is that there are no good guys in this story. Every one of them was a bastard in some way.
• 28:07 – Cam: "By the way, he's still got Crassus and Pompey there. The other two legs of the triumvirate that he's sort of frenemies with."
I would argue that Crassus wasn't his frenemy. He was as close to a friend as was possible between two powerful men. Crassus was someone Caesar could trust pretty safely. And vice versa.
• 29:19 – Cam on Clodius: "He is the youngest son of Appius Claudius, who was consul in 79 BC and then governor of Macedonia from 78 to 76 BC after his consulship. He came from, you know, the Claudii. The Claudii were patrician family. In fact, they were a very highly esteemed in many ways, long, great patrician house. Had been in the heart of the Republic for generations, more so than the Julii. Had a long history of consuls, famous statesmen. So this guy was born into tradition of wealth and power."
a) Appius Claudius Pulcher received the proconsulship of Macedonia in 78 BC, but he couldn't go because of health problems. In 77 BC, he was an interrex in Rome. He left to govern Macedonia some time that year, but in 76 BC he got sick and died.
b) The Claudii were one of the greatest patrician houses, but it's worth noting that after the death of Appius Claudius, their financial situation was not great. The third daughter had to be married off without a dowry. So even though Clodius enjoyed the prestige of the family name, his wealth wasn't that great.
• 30:03 – Cam: "But he [Clodius] was batshit crazy. You know how later on in the Roman Empire, the further you go into it, apart from the occasional sane emperor, most of them just become just increasingly batshit crazy. This is Clodius, man. . . We've mentioned him before with the Bona Dea incident. So, remember this religious festival, women-only, it's happening in Caesar's house. Clodius dresses up as a woman, sneaks in to have an affair with Caesar's wife, during the holies of holy religious festivals, gets caught. He's charged, he's prosecuted. . . . That's Clodius, right. Like, who does that? Like, seriously? Who does that?"
a) Most Roman emperors were not crazy. And certainly not "the further you go into it." The most infamous ones were Caligula and Nero. Both came from the very first imperial dynasty of Rome. But Nero wasn't crazy. Caligula… maybe. Though Anthony Barret makes a strong case that Caligula was not insane. Bad emperor =/= crazy. The only mentally ill emperor after Caligula was Elagabalus. He ruled from AD 218 to 222.
b) "Who does that?"
If men dressed in women's clothes were allowed to attend the smaller private celebrations in honor of the Bona Dea, then Clodius' mistake was simply in crushing the party at the wrong house (the Vestals were performing sacrifice pro populo in Caesar's house).
I'll copy an excerpt from Mulroy's article that I posted in episode 8.
"In reality, it is extremely difficult for an adult male to pass himself off convincingly as a woman. Plutarch's statement that Clodius had not yet began to shave and therefore looked like a maiden in the face is an attempt to address this difficulty. As a newly elected quaestor, however, Clodius was at least thirty. . . . How could the adult Clodius possibly have hoped to have passed for a flute girl, even in dim light? The absurdity is heightened by two facts: flute girls wore transparent gowns and Clodius features were well known to the people whom he supposedly hoped to deceive.
[...] Cicero tells us that when Clodius' action was first brought up in the senate, the question of whether a sacrilege (nefas) had occurred was referred to the Vestals and pontifices. Though their answer was affirmative, the fact that they had to be consulted shows that there was room for disagreement on the matter.
It is much more likely that Clodius went to the ceremony in the mistaken belief that his presence would not offend anyone (or at least that no punitive action would be taken) than that he did so in the hope of actually passing for a flute girl.
[...] The December worship of Bona Dea was organized along a standard Roman pattern, exemplified by the Fordicidia in which the Vestals also took part: a principal ceremony on behalf of the state as a whole and a number of simultaneous private or regional ceremonies. In other words, on the night in question, many groups held revels in honor of the Bona Dea. At one such revel, the Vestal Virgins were present and conducted a sacrifice pro populo. . . . An individual was only subject to punitive action when he disturbed sacra publica and thus endangered the good will of the gods towards to the community. . . . If Clodius had arrived later, after the Virgins' sacrifice, or if he had gone to the Bona Dea's revel at a different household shrine, his action would have been a matter of personal taste and conscience.
It is difficult to believe that Clodius deliberately incurred resentment and ridicule that followed upon his appearance at the ceremony. It is possible that he was guilty of faux pos born of ignorance or miscommunication. He may not have known that the revel at Caesar's house was the one selected for the Vestals' sacrifice, or he may simply have arrived too early.
Some such factors probably combined to transform a minor error in judgment into a major scandal. . . . When the word of the contretemps reached Clodius' enemies, of whom he had more than a few, they capitalized on it, with well-known consequences."
• 31:34 – Cam: "So, I got this other quote. This is from a book somewhere. 'Clodius is the most extraordinary figure in this extraordinary period. He had no character. He had no distinguished talent save for speech; he had no policy; he was ready to adopt any cause or person which for the moment was convenient to him; and yet for five years this man was the omnipotent leader of the Roman mob. He could defy justice, insult consuls, beat the tribunes, parade the streets with a gang of armed slaves, killing persons disagreeable to him; and in the Senate itself he had his high friends and connections who threw a shield over him when his audacity had gone beyond endurance. We know Clodius only from Cicero; and a picture of him from a second hand might have made his position more intelligible, if not more reputable. Even in Rome it is scarcely credible that the Clodius of Cicero could have played such a part, or that the death of such a man should have been regarded as a national calamity.'"
This is Froude again. Cam cut off the quote before Froude finished his thought. His point was not, "Look at Clodius' antics!" It was to question Cicero's portrayal of Clodius.
"Even in Rome it is scarcely credible that the Clodius of Cicero could have played such a part, or that the death of such a man should have been regarded as a national calamity. Cicero says that Clodius revived Catiline's faction; but what was Catiline's faction? or how came Catiline to have a faction which survived him?"
Catiline was Cicero's boogeyman. His go-to example whenever he wanted to vilify someone.
Of course, I don't think that Clodius was innocent. He was a troublemaker and contributed a lot to the anarchy of the 50s BC. He definitely abused the use of violence. But I don't think he was mentally ill (it wouldn't surprise me if some of his antics were deliberate and calculated). I believe he was quite sane, but with little regard for boundaries.
• 34:12 – Cam: "He [Clodius] was involved in the Third Mithridatic War under his brother-in-law Lucullus. . . But he didn’t feel like he was getting sufficient respect, so he stirred up a revolt."
Mulroy gives an interesting analysis of this, too. The insubordinate legions were the ones who served under Flaccus and Fimbria before. They've been serving since 86 BC when Marius and Sulla were still alive!
"There was a good case that the Fimbrians, who had been in service abroad for nearly twenty years, deserved to be released. In Rome the decision was being made to remove the war against Mithridates from the guidance of Lucullus, who seemed unwilling or unable to end it. Under these circumstances, there must have been a growing body of responsible opinion even in the general's own camp that he should not undertake new offensives but attend to his primary responsibility, the protection of Pontus, until his replacement arrived.
The likely nucleus of truth in Plutarch's story seems to me to be that Clodius was publicly identified with such sentiments. The idea that this identification arose because he went around with strange impunity inciting soldiers to mutiny is especially implausible, however, since there was a normal and legal way for Clodius to express himself. Although in theory, Roman commanders had absolute authority over their armies, they did customarily consult their staffs or consilia, which included high-ranking centurions, military tribunes, legates and available knights and senators and their sons. Differences of opinion between a commander and his officers and men would emerge in meetings of the consilium, which also provided the commander with his best opportunity to persuade his subordinates to support his decisions. The deliberations of Lucullus' consilium before the battle of Tigranocerta are fancifully described by Plutarch.
As a noble, Clodius had the right to express his opinions at such meetings. If he wanted to criticize Lucullus' command, they constituted a legal, honorable and effective means of doing so, and would have made his disposition a matter of public knowledge.
Critics of aggressive foreign policies are likely to be accused of disloyalty. There is no reasons to believe that Cicero's reference to "nefarious treachery," as embellished by Dio, and especially by Plutarch, amounts to any more than an exaggerated ad hominem attack on an opponent for what was really a justifiable position taken in the normal course of debate, viz. Clodius' taking the position in staff meetings that the Fimbrians should be released and that the other soldiers should undertake no further actions until Lucullus' replacement arrived. Since some centurions would be present at meetings of the consilium, Clodius' words could in fact have had the effect of making the troops harder to command. If they actually refused orders to march back to Armenia, as they may have done, Lucullus would naturally blame the situation on lack of proper support by his officers.
In 61, during the Bona Dea controversy, Clodius addressed rallies held in his support. We learn from Cicero that he not only defended himself but criticized prominent citizens with whom he had come into conflict. These included Lucullus. Clodius undoubtedly renewed his criticisms of the general's command, and it may well have been at this juncture that his enemies, including Cicero, first added the instigation of mutiny to the charges against him. On this construction, however, Clodius stands convicted of nothing worse than an inclination to be outspokenly critical of authority, which is not necessary a bad trait."
• 34:28 – Cam: "And then he [Clodius] got captured by pirates. . . . The pirates sought ransom. . . They went to Ptolemy of Cyprus, the king of Cyprus. . . . The pirates go to the king of Cyprus and says, 'We've got this Clodius guy. Give us some ransom.' Ptolemy says, 'I'll give you five bucks.' I don't know what the sum was, but apparently the sum was so trivial and so insulting that the pirates thought it was hilarious and they let Clodius go without any money. They just thought it was hilarious that he was considered so invaluable."
This is Strabo's version of events:
"The chief cause of the ruin of the king was Publius Claudius Pulcher; for the latter, having fallen into the hands of the bands of pirates, the Cilicians then being at the height of their power, and, being asked for a ransom, sent a message to the king, begging him to send and rescue him. The king indeed sent a ransom, but so utterly small that the pirates disdained to take it and sent it back again, but released him without ransom."
Whereas Cassius Dio says that Ptolemy didn't pay at all:
"Clodius wished . . . to avenge himself upon Ptolemy, who then held Cyprus, because the latter had failed to ransom him from the pirates."
Dio also says that the pirates released Clodius out of fear of Pompey:
"Now Clodius, after being captured by the pirates and released by them in consequence of their fear of Pompey, came to Antioch in Syria."
Dio's version sounds more realistic, imo.
By the way, Cicero claimed that the pirates raped Clodius and listed it as one of his sins. Because rape is the fault of the victim? Classy Cicero.
"...a fellow who, from the moment of his father's death, made his tender age subservient to the lusts of wealthy buffoons; when he had satiated their licentiousness, then he turned to the domestic seduction of his own sister; then, when he had become a man, he devoted himself to the concerns of a province, and to military affairs, and suffered insults from the pirates; he satisfied the lusts even of Cilicians and barbarians."
• 36:54 – Cam on Clodius transferring to a plebeian: "This was highly illegal. You can't renounce your patrician rank. Well, look, there were certain circumstances where you could do this, but this wasn't one of them. This wasn't like something you could just do. . . . In certain situations, if you were maybe a young patrician and you had no family, an older plebeian could adopt you. But you had to change your name to his name. It was proper, legit, legal thing. But this was not, this was like a complete farce. Even at Rome at the time, it was argued for years later that it was a complete farce, shouldn't have happened, it was highly illegal."
Clodius' adoption was of dubious legality, but Cam can't explain why. Here's why:
"Legally the procedure was invalid, because the intervals prescribed for a law—the agreement of the curiae represented a lex curiata—were not observed, because no regular pontifical decree was submitted, and finally because the auspices were not in order, since Bibulus was watching the heavens for omens at the time, as indeed he was every day." – Matthias Gelzer
"It was argued for years" is an exaggeration, though. Of course, Cicero never failed to throw it at Clodius' face, but his adoption was seriously argued only in 58 and 56 BC.
• 39:37 – Ray: "When Clodius wasn't banging his three sisters..."
This was political slander. We have no idea if there was any truth in it.
• 39:58 – Ray: "He [Clodius] reorganizes the State's supply of grain . . . from now on the people of Rome, the poor people, are gonna get a regular dole of grain provided by the State. So this is unheard of."
In the past, there were laws of similar nature. For example, one of Gaius Gracchus's laws stipulated a monthly distribution of grain at a lower price. And Cato suggested a free distribution to calm down the crowd during the Catilinarian debacle. But Clodius took it even further.
"...the new lex frumentaria was of far-reaching importance. For the cheap corn guaranteed by the state, he substituted a completely free distribution. So many were deemed eligible for this that their numbers had swollen to 320,000 by 46. By 56, these corn distributions were devouring a fifth of the state's revenue." – Matthias Gelzer
• 40:28 – Ray: "And then he [Clodius] says to the– he restricts the censors from being able to expel senators willy-nilly. So if you were a senator and you were getting up in age, one of the great honors that might be handed to you is to be a censor. And one of the things you could is you'd make su– you'd go through all these senatorial rolls and make sure everybody, who is in the Senate qualifies as [can't make out the word], and they're not doing anything to embarrass the Senate too much."
a) Censorship was not "handed to you." Censors were elected just like all other magistrates.
"The censors were elected in the comitia centuriata held under the presidency of a consul. . . It was necessary that both censors should be elected on the same day; and accordingly if the voting for the second was not finished, the election of the first went for nothing, and new comitia had to be held. . . . As a general principle the only persons eligible to the office were those who had previously been consuls; but a few exceptions occur. . . The censors also held a very peculiar position with respect to rank and dignity. No imperium was bestowed upon them, and accordingly they had no lictors. The jus censurae was granted to them by a lex centuriata, and not by the curiae, and in that respect they were inferior in power to the consuls and praetors. But notwithstanding this, the censorship was regarded as the highest dignity in the state, with the exception of the dictatorship; it was an ἱερὰ ἀρχή, a sanctus magistratus, to which the deepest reverence was due." – William Smith
b) "he restricts the censors from being able to expel senators willy-nilly"
Ray didn't explain what these restrictions were.
"He also forbade the censors to remove anybody from any order or to censure any one, except as he should be tried and convicted before them both." – Cassius Dio
Pompey will repeal this in his third consulship in 52 BC. Subsequently, one of the newly elected censors will proceed to eliminate men associated with Caesar from the Senate.
• 41:44 – Ray: "But Clodius is determined, he is going to get back at Cicero for killing those people [the Catilinarians], because it was considered un-Roman at the time."
It wasn't simply un-Roman, it was straight-up illegal. You couldn't execute Roman citizens without a trial, which is what Cicero had done.
But that's not the reason for Clodius' animosity. Cicero ruined his alibi during the Bona Dea trial. If Clodius had been found guilty, he would've been forced into exile. So Clodius was pissed at Cicero and wished to pay him back.
• 41:57 – Ray: "And Caesar says to Cicero, 'Look, I'm about to head off to my province, why don't you become a legate in my army. You'll have imperium, you'll have my protection, and Clodius cannot touch you.' And as you said a couple of minutes ago, Cam, that Cicero, for all his faults, he was a very vain man, but he was honorable and he saw this as, maybe, as a coward's way out or whatever. And he said, 'No, I'm not gonna take that way out.'"
This is a rehash of what's been said in episode 11.
a) Cicero wouldn't have the imperium. The reason he would be free from prosecution is because lex Memmia protected anyone who was away in the service of the state.
b) He said no to Caesar because he thought that Pompey and the optimates would protect him.
"His initial confidence then began to waver, as he realized that he could not count on Pompey's support, nor on that of many leading senators whose loyalty he had expected. . . In the middle of March – roughly the same time that Caesar set out for Gaul – Cicero fled the city to go into voluntary exile, and soon passed into deep depression, blaming everyone else for his plight and lamenting his own momentary cowardice." – Adrian Goldsworthy
c) He eagerly accepted the triumvirs' help to return.
His behavior is understandable. I just disagree that there was anything honorable about it. Judge for yourself: he executed the Catilinarians and proclaimed himself a savior of the state. When the optimates began a concentrated attack on the triumvirs in 59 BC, he was gleefully watching the spectacle and jumped on the bandwagon to add to it. But then Clodius appeared on stage, and Cicero quickly backtracked on his words. When the optimates dropped him, Cicero blamed everyone around him. After his return from exile, he had to justify his friendly relations with the triumvirs in lengthy monologues. It's all pretty banal and pathetic.
• 44:25 – Cam: "But Pompey at this stage isn't having a good run either. You know, Pompey has– he can't turn a trick at this stage. He is certainly probably got a bit of fame left over from his previous military successes and his period as consul. He's got some wealth, but there is a lot of anger being stirred up by the masses against him. And even Clodius at this stage is starting to turn– oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, he changed his name from Claudius to Clodius, when he became a plebeian. That's why we call him Clodius and not Claudius. So, you know, Pompey is not really in a position to save Cicero at this stage, even if he wanted to. And, you know, he does actually, not too long after this, try and get some legislation through to get Cicero back and it gets voted down, gets vetoed."
a) This is the first half of 58 BC! Pompey returned from the East in 61. His fame and wealth are perfectly fine!
b) "there is a lot of anger being stirred up by the masses against him"
This is March of 58! Pompey's problems will begin at the end of 57. Nothing prevented him from helping Cicero at this stage. Pompey's unreliability is important to the story, especially later on. There is a whole list of people whom he dropped when it suited him. Bruce Marshall has a nice little article that covers some of this.
c) "he changed his name from Claudius to Clodius, when he became a plebeian."
He changed his name to Clodius years before his adoption. Already in 61 BC, Cicero called him Clodius.
d) Cam makes it sound as though Pompey personally prepared a legislation to get Cicero back. It wasn't his proposal. One of the tribunes proposed it in June of 58. Pompey supported it.
• 46:37 – Ray: "You can't berate him [Cato], you can't intimidate him, because God knows Caesar tried and it didn't work."
Caesar lost his temper with Cato (when the latter was filibustering for hours) only once. Apart from that incident, Caesar never tried to berate or intimidate Cato. It would simply be a waste of time because Cato was unmovable.
• 46:52 – Ray: "Cyprus is about to be incorporated into the Republic, but Cyprus is gonna bring such a huge load of money that it's very important– because remember they don't have all the public land that they did before, because of Caesar's land bill. There is a lot of veterans living on that now. So Rome– the State is not bringing in the money it once did from all this land, so they have to have other money. So they've got this huge wonderful deal that's going to bring huge diffidence, but because it's all about money, they need the most honest senator or Roman politician they can possibly find to go to Cyprus and oversee this and hey, who is there, when he's sober, more honest than Cato?"
a) "There is a lot of veterans living on that now."
Not just the veterans. A lot of people from the urban poor received land as well.
b) The revenue from the Campanian land (before distribution) was significantly less than what the Treasury received from the provinces, especially the Eastern ones. So it's not like Rome's treasury was in desperate need of the Campanian land revenue. The problem was that the optimates wanted to have a source of revenue in Italy itself, not just in the provinces (who are always at risk of rebellion). But even more than that, they simply resented the fact that Caesar was able to push through his legislation despite the Senate's opposition.
"Attempts to remove the ager Campanus from the censors' control and use it for distribution had always aroused the most violent opposition. Quite apart from its economic value, the Campanian land seems to have acquired an almost symbolic significance. After so many threats had been warded off in the past, Caesar's interference had inspired perhaps more resentment than any other aspect of his legislation." – Robin Seager
***
A bit off-topic, but not really… In one of the "Assassin's Creed" games that takes place in Alexandria, they make Brutus kill Caesar with the words "land to the people." What a f---ing joke. Caesar gave land to the people. Not the Senate and certainly not Brutus. Both in his consulship and his dictatorship, land distribution was one of the cornerstones of Caesar's policy.
***
c) Cato's honesty was the reason given for his appointment to get him out of Rome. But it's worth noting that this wasn't a bad deal for him.
"In the first place, this legislation conferred upon him the rank and regalia of a praetor, even though he had not yet reached the praetorship. The title pro quaestore pro praetore meant he was being sent out as one who had held the quaestorship (pro quaestore), but that he was sent "in place of a praetor" (pro praetore) and so was given the honors and trappings of a praetor. This was very desirable, because praetorian rank conferred the coveted curule regalia, including lictors bearing fasces and the right to use an ivory chair in emulation of Rome’s ancient kings, all of which permanently enhanced a man's dignitas. . . Like all aristocrats, Cato sought high magistracies and the distinguishing honors they conferred, so the offer of praetorian rank before he had actually reached the praetorship would have been very welcome. . . . He also knew he would not be gone from Rome too long: he received the task in February of 58 bc, but a few months later the Senate announced that Cyprus would be linked with Cilicia as a consular province for one of the consuls of 57 bc, which meant that Cato would be succeeded by early 56 bc at the latest (as was indeed the case). Knowing that he would be gone less than two years, he accepted the assignment." – Fred K. Drogula
d) As for Cato's honesty in practice... In episode 7, I posted Drogula's argument that Cato had embezzled money in Cyprus, so this time I'll post Stewart Irvin Oost.
("Brutus' lending" refers to the draconian and illegal interests that Brutus imposed on the Cyprian city of Salamis):
• 50:58 – Cam: "When Ptolemy XI died, in his will, he was friends with Sulla, right? In his will he bequeathed Egypt and Cyprus to Rome. But the Romans didn't really take it up. . . . But they hadn't taken it up for a whole bunch of reasons. They didn't wanna expend into Egypt right then and there, they were getting taxes out of them anyway, fines and stuff."
a) There was a will, but its authenticity was contested.
b) The Romans weren't getting taxes from Egypt and Cyprus. Only the provinces were subject to taxation. As allied states, Egypt and Cyprus were obligated to provide auxiliary and military supplies if Rome requested it.
• 53:11 – Cam: "As you say, their finances weren't great because of the Campanian laws that Caesar had passed, which had taken a big hit to the public treasury."
Again, the revenue from the Campanian land before distribution wasn't that big compared to the taxes they got from the provinces. Of course, that money would've been handy now, but it's not like the Treasury was empty. Later, the Senate will give Pompey a huge sum to purchase grain, so they did have it.
• 53:40 – Cam: "Ptolemy of Cyprus? Poisoned himself, when Cato arrived or before he arrived, he was like, 'Alright, this isn't gonna go well.' Rather than submit himself to the indignity of Roman rule, he committed suicide. Supposedly. I mean, could've been [can't make out of the word] for all we know."
I don't see anything suspicious about Ptolemy's death. He was offered the priesthood at the sanctuary of Aphrodite on Paphos. It was a position of wealth and honor. He could've easily bowed to the Romans and accepted this cushy post. But he chose to go out in a way that would allow him to keep his pride. This portrays him in a very honorable light and accentuates the injustice done to him.
• 54:13 – Cam: "So he [Ptolemy XII] gets the hell out of Egypt and he's in Rome. And he's hanging out at Rome, hanging out with Pompey. And perhaps his daughter. The young Cleopatra was probably there with him at this stage. We don't really know, but the timelines would seem to say she was there."
Ptolemy XII came to Rome in 57 BC, not 58.
It's highly, highly unlikely that Cleopatra was with her father. And I don't see how the timeline would suggest that. Why would he take a 12-year-old with him?
• 54:55 – Cam: "The Egyptians sent a delegation to Rome. Like, the actual Egyptian– remember, these guys [Ptolemy dynasty] were basically Greek. . . So the Egyptians go to Rome to, you know, say, 'Hey, can we, like, self-govern for once? Can we have an Egyptian pharaoh, maybe, you know?' And Ptolemy has them met at the docks basically by gangs. And they're all killed. Except one guy Dion, who gets away. Then there is some legal challenges for Dion, but yeah, that doesn't go well."
a) "The Egyptians sent a delegation to Rome. Like, the actual Egyptian"
The ambassadors came from Alexandria and Dio was their leader. It was mostly Greeks who lived in Alexandria. Dio is also a Greek name. So it's more likely that all of them were Greeks. Even if there were any actual Egyptians living in Alexandria, they were in the minority and poor.
b) "Can we have an Egyptian pharaoh, maybe, you know?"
They weren't asking for an Egyptian pharaoh. The Alexandrians chose two of Ptolemy XII's daughters (or his wife and daughter) as pharaohs. The delegation was sent to argue against the restoration of Ptolemy XII.
c) "And they're all killed."
Some were killed, others were bribed or intimidated.
Dio lived in the house of Lucius Lucceius. Apparently Marcus Caelius Rufus tried (unsuccessfully) to bribe Lucceius' slaves to poison Dio. Cicero defended Caelius and he was acquitted.
• 56:25 – Ray: "Pompey also has another hostage in his house. A lot of the aristocrats kept hostages in their house for the sake of Rome, because there weren't jails per se. And one of them is the king of Armenia. He's been in Pompey's house for a while. Clodius is able to sneak him out."
a) That's an exaggeration. Sometimes the Romans kept hostages of high standing (most of the time in Italian towns), but it's not like there were a lot of them.
b) It wasn't the king of Armenia, it was his son. And he wasn't at Pompey's house.
• 56:55 – Ray: "After this happens, the consul Gabinius is not really happy with the way Clodius is operating and he pretty much says so publicly. Clodius has his gang beat the shit out of Gabinius. One of the consuls. You don't touch the consuls, the consuls are inviolate, you cannot touch them."
a) Clodius' gangs didn't beat the shit out of Gabinius. They broke his fasces and wounded his followers.
b) The consuls are not inviolate. Tribunes are. Of course, you couldn't assault a consul without consequences. He could fine you or throw you into jail for the offense. But any magistrate could do that. Tribunes, on the other hand, were sacrosanct. That's why the murder of Tiberius Gracchus was such a big deal. It set a precedent for political violence and the killing of a person who was supposed to be untouchable.
"Little need to be said in judgment on the Roman annexation of Cyprus. That there was no justification for it, morally, or in the fetial law of Rome is self-evident. But Cato himself appears in hardly a better light; if no more than suspicion of illegality can be laid at his door, nevertheless that he displayed no consideration for the subjects of his province, but exercised the unrestrained pressure and influence which the normal coercitio of a Roman magistrate placed in his grasp, seems very probable. His conception of the law never entailed clemency or mercy, a most unfavorable contrast with the mildness of the great Julius in this respect and a contrast noted by their contemporaries. To Cato the letter of the law was synonymous with justice – exception being made for the benefit of his family. Entirely apart from the traditional typical Roman morality which felt little responsibility to non-Romans, his attitude toward the moral issues inherent in Brutus' lending was probably much like that expressed by the late Calvin Coolidge: "Well, they hired the money, didn't they?" That his legalism was the measure of his probity is also born out by such episodes as his famous refusal on another occasion to remit a portion of their contract price to the publicans, despite the political advisability of such a measure, a measure which would promote what Cato himself wanted. . . . Cato's Stoicism was obviously merely a thin glue to piece together his interpretations of the dogmas of an archaic and fading past by which he ordered his life, but even here he failed to live up to his ideal. His idolized ancestor, the great Censor, had condemned both the oppression of the provincials and particularly the extortion of interest from them. If such a hard hearted and cruel man was the best what the waning Republic could produce, the men of the Middle Ages who, like Dante, saw in the coming of the Empire a divine dispensation may well have been right."
• 50:58 – Cam: "When Ptolemy XI died, in his will, he was friends with Sulla, right? In his will he bequeathed Egypt and Cyprus to Rome. But the Romans didn't really take it up. . . . But they hadn't taken it up for a whole bunch of reasons. They didn't wanna expend into Egypt right then and there, they were getting taxes out of them anyway, fines and stuff."
a) There was a will, but its authenticity was contested.
b) The Romans weren't getting taxes from Egypt and Cyprus. Only the provinces were subject to taxation. As allied states, Egypt and Cyprus were obligated to provide auxiliary and military supplies if Rome requested it.
• 53:11 – Cam: "As you say, their finances weren't great because of the Campanian laws that Caesar had passed, which had taken a big hit to the public treasury."
Again, the revenue from the Campanian land before distribution wasn't that big compared to the taxes they got from the provinces. Of course, that money would've been handy now, but it's not like the Treasury was empty. Later, the Senate will give Pompey a huge sum to purchase grain, so they did have it.
• 53:40 – Cam: "Ptolemy of Cyprus? Poisoned himself, when Cato arrived or before he arrived, he was like, 'Alright, this isn't gonna go well.' Rather than submit himself to the indignity of Roman rule, he committed suicide. Supposedly. I mean, could've been [can't make out of the word] for all we know."
I don't see anything suspicious about Ptolemy's death. He was offered the priesthood at the sanctuary of Aphrodite on Paphos. It was a position of wealth and honor. He could've easily bowed to the Romans and accepted this cushy post. But he chose to go out in a way that would allow him to keep his pride. This portrays him in a very honorable light and accentuates the injustice done to him.
• 54:13 – Cam: "So he [Ptolemy XII] gets the hell out of Egypt and he's in Rome. And he's hanging out at Rome, hanging out with Pompey. And perhaps his daughter. The young Cleopatra was probably there with him at this stage. We don't really know, but the timelines would seem to say she was there."
Ptolemy XII came to Rome in 57 BC, not 58.
It's highly, highly unlikely that Cleopatra was with her father. And I don't see how the timeline would suggest that. Why would he take a 12-year-old with him?
• 54:55 – Cam: "The Egyptians sent a delegation to Rome. Like, the actual Egyptian– remember, these guys [Ptolemy dynasty] were basically Greek. . . So the Egyptians go to Rome to, you know, say, 'Hey, can we, like, self-govern for once? Can we have an Egyptian pharaoh, maybe, you know?' And Ptolemy has them met at the docks basically by gangs. And they're all killed. Except one guy Dion, who gets away. Then there is some legal challenges for Dion, but yeah, that doesn't go well."
a) "The Egyptians sent a delegation to Rome. Like, the actual Egyptian"
The ambassadors came from Alexandria and Dio was their leader. It was mostly Greeks who lived in Alexandria. Dio is also a Greek name. So it's more likely that all of them were Greeks. Even if there were any actual Egyptians living in Alexandria, they were in the minority and poor.
b) "Can we have an Egyptian pharaoh, maybe, you know?"
They weren't asking for an Egyptian pharaoh. The Alexandrians chose two of Ptolemy XII's daughters (or his wife and daughter) as pharaohs. The delegation was sent to argue against the restoration of Ptolemy XII.
c) "And they're all killed."
Some were killed, others were bribed or intimidated.
Dio lived in the house of Lucius Lucceius. Apparently Marcus Caelius Rufus tried (unsuccessfully) to bribe Lucceius' slaves to poison Dio. Cicero defended Caelius and he was acquitted.
• 56:25 – Ray: "Pompey also has another hostage in his house. A lot of the aristocrats kept hostages in their house for the sake of Rome, because there weren't jails per se. And one of them is the king of Armenia. He's been in Pompey's house for a while. Clodius is able to sneak him out."
a) That's an exaggeration. Sometimes the Romans kept hostages of high standing (most of the time in Italian towns), but it's not like there were a lot of them.
b) It wasn't the king of Armenia, it was his son. And he wasn't at Pompey's house.
"Pompeius had restored Tigranes to the Armenian throne, but he had brought the king's son to Rome as a hostage. The prince was being lodged at the house of Pompeius' adherent L. Flavius, now praetor. Clodius organized his abduction and despite Pompeius' demands refused to return him. The subsequent attempt to spirit young Tigranes away involved a skirmish on the Appian Way, when Flavius tried to recover the prince by force, in which several of the participants were killed, among them M. Papirius, a friend of Pompeius." – Robin Seager
• 56:55 – Ray: "After this happens, the consul Gabinius is not really happy with the way Clodius is operating and he pretty much says so publicly. Clodius has his gang beat the shit out of Gabinius. One of the consuls. You don't touch the consuls, the consuls are inviolate, you cannot touch them."
a) Clodius' gangs didn't beat the shit out of Gabinius. They broke his fasces and wounded his followers.
"Clodius had taken a bribe to deliver Tigranes the younger, who was still at that time in confinement at the house of Lucius Flavius, and had let him go; and when Pompey and Gabinius became indignant at this, he wantonly insulted them, inflicted blows and wounds upon their followers, broke to pieces the consul's fasces, and devoted his property to the gods." – Cassius Dio
b) The consuls are not inviolate. Tribunes are. Of course, you couldn't assault a consul without consequences. He could fine you or throw you into jail for the offense. But any magistrate could do that. Tribunes, on the other hand, were sacrosanct. That's why the murder of Tiberius Gracchus was such a big deal. It set a precedent for political violence and the killing of a person who was supposed to be untouchable.
• 57:22 – Ray: "And now that Clodius has done all of these amazing things, somewhere around June 58 BCE he openly questions whether Caesar should be recalled or not. Because he's won all these wars, who's left. He's dealt with all these people. Now he's gonna deal with Caesar. And one of things he says is, 'You know, all of those things that Caesar did as a consul? I don’t think they were legal.' So, he's about to try to unravel all the work Caesar has done over the last three years."
Cam: "And let's keep in mind that this guy became a tribune of the plebs in the first place because of Caesar’s support. And now he's like, 'Ah, screw you, guys. I'm the most powerful man in Rome now.'"
Ray: "He's the first man in Rome now."
a) Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58! Neither Clodius nor anyone else demanded his recall in June of 58. What wars? What three years of work? He's been there for 3 months!
b) Clodius will question the validity of Caesar's legislations in the summer of 58. But he never suggested his recall from Gaul. Not in 58, not ever.
c) Clodius is not the first man in Rome. Not even he is that delusional.
d) "Now he's gonna deal with Caesar."
He probably did it to annoy Pompey. Because at least one of Caesar's laws was of great importance to Pompey. It was never intended to be taken too seriously. Just an attempt to muddy the waters.
• 59:34 – Cam: "By the way, I think from memory too, his sister was married to Lucullus that he served under, ex-consul. So he's sleeping with his, you know, sister, who's also his boss' wife."
Lucullus volunteered to testify against Clodius at the Bona Dia trial. He claimed that Clodius slept with his wife, whom he divorced for infidelity after his return from the East. His ex-wife was Clodius' third sister, and this is the only source for this claim. It should be taken very carefully because Lucullus hated Clodius.
By the way, Cam dismisses Clodius as batshit crazy, but it was actually Lucullus who was suffering from some mental illness upon his return to Rome.
• 59:56 – Cam: "I mentioned Pompey tries to get the Senate to recall Cicero from exile. Motion gets vetoed. That's in June. And then in August Clodius arranges for one of his slaves to let a dagger fall out of his toga. I don’t think slaves wear togas. Whatever the thing slaves were wearing. Tunic, maybe. And then he was interrogated, the slave. And the slave says, 'Yes, I was sent to murder Pompey.' And suggested it might've been Crassus that had sent him to knife Pompey."
Ray: "Nice. Well done."
Cam: "So Clodius sets this whole thing up. At least according to Cicero. I mean everything we know about this we know from Cicero. Obviously hated this guy. But anyway, let's just go with the story. So Pompey, big, brave general and all, but was terrified that he might be assassinated. So he pulls a Bibulus and he goes home and isn't seen for months. He hides away in his house. And so, you know, the relationship between the triumvirates, Pompey and Crassus is obviously quite strained. There is some suggestion, some of my sources, that Caesar might have been orchestrating all of this? Because, you know, he was like, 'Well, these guys aren't being very nice to me right now.' Pompey was suggesting that maybe Caesar should come home early. You know, Caesar would have this 15-day thanksgiving and Pompey wasn't very happy about it as I mentioned before. But also Pompey was making the suggestion, 'Well, if they're having a thanksgiving for him. For what he's accomplished. Then it's done. His job is done. He doesn't need to be there.' He's supposed to have 5 years term, he's been there two. He's like, 'Well, come home. You don't need any more military victories. You've had enough, come home. You're having thanksgiving. What else you're gonna try and do, right?' So Caesar might have been going, 'Well, ok, these guys are turning on me. I'm gonna make sure they turn on themselves, so they need me. So they don't think they can do it without me. Either as an individual or just the two of them.' It's divide and conquer."
a) "Whatever the thing slaves were wearing. Tunic, maybe."
b) "And the slave says, 'Yes, I was sent to murder Pompey.' And suggested it might've been Crassus that had sent him to knife Pompey. . . At least according to Cicero. Everything we know about this we know from Cicero."
Cicero is not the only source for this story. It was also in Plutarch and Asconius. None of them mention Crassus. Not even vaguely!
c) "There is some suggestion, some of my sources, Caesar might have been orchestrating all of this? Because, you know, he was like, 'Well, these guys are not being very nice to me right now.' Pompey was suggesting that maybe Caesar should come home early. Caesar has this 15-day thanksgiving and Pompey wasn't very happy about it as I mentioned before."
Oh for God's sake! This is August of 58! Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58. He's been there for barely 5 months. Nobody was suggesting his recall at this time!
The motion to grant Caesar 15-day thanksgiving was made at the end of 57. The attempts to replace Caesar in Gaul were made in the spring of 56. Cam and Ray keep inserting these events into 58, which completely screws up the timeline and leads to some bizarre conspiracy theories. It's honestly so frustrating.
d) "He's supposed to have 5 years term, he's been there two."
This is 58 BC, not 56!
Cam and Ray are following Goldsworthy's book. Chapters 10 and 11 are dedicated to Caesar's first two years in Gaul (58 and 57). Chapter 12 starts with the words: "Caesar had already been away for two years, and the time had not passed quietly in Rome." Goldsworthy proceeds to describe what's been happening in Rome all the while. But Cam and Ray perceive these events as if they were happening after Caesar's victories that we just finished reading about. Towards the end of chapter 12, Caesar's timeline and Rome's timeline coalesce at the conference of Luca. So, the chapter starts in 58 and ends in 56, but Cam and Ray just lump it all together.
e) 'Well, ok, these guys are turning on me.'
Crassus never turned on Caesar for the whole duration of their partnership.
• 01:02:24 – Ray: "And I want to add on to something you said. Back in June of 58 BCE, when Pompey wants the Senate to recall Cicero and he's told no. Think about that for a moment. A couple of years ago Pompey was the first man in Rome, he was the rock star. He wouldn't have had to ask anything. He would've simply said, 'I want this done' and the momentum was so with him, it would've happened. So not only does he have to ask the Senate about Cicero, he is told no. I mean that just really shows you how far Pompey has come down. It's gotta be shock to this man's ego. Here is his son-in-low getting all these military glories, people are not paying attention to him, the Senate is not only ignoring him, but they're all obviously able to tell him no. Poor Pompey is just pitifully hiding in his house."
a) "He wouldn't have had to ask anything. He would've simply said, 'I want this done' and the momentum was so with him, it would've happened."
Pompey couldn't do shit when he returned from the East! For two years (61 and 60 BC), the Senate was blocking him at every turn. That's why he joined the triumvirate in the first place! I can't believe they forgot something so important.
b) "So not only does he have to ask the Senate about Cicero, he is told no / the Senate is not only ignoring him, but they're all obviously able to tell him no."
It was not Pompey's proposal. Tribune Lucius Ninnius proposed it to the Senate. Pompey expressed his support. The Senate also supported the proposal, but another tribune, Aelius Ligus, vetoed it.
c) "Here is his son-in-low getting all these military glories, people are not paying attention to him..."
Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58! He has only fought the Helvetii at this point.
Everyone is paying attention to Pompey! A lot is happening in Rome and he is in the thick of things. He is not some forgotten C-list.
• 01:03:12 – Ray: "But he [Pompey] does to a certain degree decide to try to fight back against Clodius. What he does is he pretty much bribes or buys two of the new tribunes. One is Titus Annius Milo and the other one is Publius Sestius. And basically he has them organize gangs. He's in control of them, they're in control of some gangs and their gangs are fighting Clodius' gangs in the streets of Rome."
Cam: "[...] Around about this time Clodius' term as tribune expires, so he has a little bit less power, but he doesn't care. He still got his gangs. And he manages to get himself elected in 56 BC as aedile."
It's 57 BC now.
a) Clodius' tribunate was from December of 59 to December of 58 BC. In December of 58, the new tribunes took up the office. So Clodius' term as tribune expired before Milo took up the office. Clodius was elected aedile for 56. The elections were held in 57, but they were postponed several times thanks to Milo.
b) Pompey supported Milo and Sestius, but it's a huge exaggeration to say that he was in control of their gangs. Milo and Sestius were independent figures and they raised gangs on their own money.
• 01:04:59 – Cam: "Pompey is determined to get Cicero back. For reasons I don't fully understand. He's really going out of his way to try and get Cicero back in Rome. Maybe he thinks he just needs the support of somebody, who can argue well against Clodius. I don't know."
What's there to understand? Pompey is pissed at Clodius. He humiliated Pompey multiple times. He annexed Cyprus, which affected Pompey's Eastern settlements; deprived King Deiotarus of Galatia of the title of high priest of the Magna Mater that Pompey bestowed upon him and instead gave it to Brogitarus, who was his rival (Cam and Ray haven't mentioned this story); stole his hostage; tried to "assassinate" him.
Cicero is one of Clodius' biggest enemies. His exile was Clodius' greatest moment. His return, therefore, will be a major f--- you to Clodius. Not to mention that it's gonna demonstrate how powerful and influential Pompey is. It will also put Cicero in his debt and he could expect certain favors from him.
• 01:05:33 – Cam: "And Caesar goes, 'Well, Pompey's doing that. I'm gonna get on board, because I don't want Cicero to just owe a debt of gratitude to Pompey. I want him to owe me.' So Caesar gets on the bandwagon."
Cam makes it sound as if Caesar volunteered once he saw Pompey do it. That's not the case. Pompey had to persuade Caesar, who wasn't exactly thrilled about it. And Crassus gave his consent at the request of his son Publius.
• 01:06:21 – Cam: "Cicero comes back AND what does he do?"
Ray: "He is so damn happy to be back amongst the Romans. He is the one who proposes to have Caesar 15-day thanksgiving for kicking the crap out of everybody north of the Alpes. But then he's got to thank Pompey as well, so he comes up with this– I don't know if he came up with it, but he is the one who proposes it to the Senate. He thanks Caesar with a 15-day thanksgiving and now he has a way to thank Pompey for his help. And he's got another special commission, which Pompey has used his entire adult life to be the rock star of Rome."
Cicero's first action was to repay Pompey. A few days after his return, he proposed to give Pompey responsibility over grain supply. The motion to grant Caesar 15-day thanksgiving was made at the end of 57.
• 01:07:30 – Cam: "He [Cicero] throws this idea up that he's going to– that the Senate should put Pompey in control of getting grain into Rome. There is grain famine going on in Rome at the moment. And prices had gone up as well because of the famine, which is why Clodius was giving it free to the people. . . But they need a lot of grain and it's hard, there is some sort of [can't make out a word] to get grain in Rome. So he goes, 'Pompey is the man. Pompey is gonna be in charge of getting grain. It's a five year commission. And we’re gonna give him lots of money, lots of supplies.' So Pompey now in power. There is a suggestion that they would give him imperium as well. Where he's trying to get imperium across all of Rome [can't make out the word, because they're talking at the same time]."
Ray: "Over everybody. Yeah."
Cam: "There is part of this. But that didn't work. But he does have some power. He's got armies again, he's on a mission, where he can obviously, you know, reestablish his auctoritas. So that's Cicero’s payback for Pompey at this stage."
Ray: "Yeah. And if I can just add one thing on to that. Normally when you get a commission, you have imperium. And when you have imperium, you have to leave Rome. But because Pompey's figured out the power is being in Rome, he gets a special dispensation put in there that he can do all these stuff, but he doesn't have to leave Rome. So he can travel, he can go out and check things out, and he will, but he does not automatically have to leave Rome for the next five years, which is gonna to be very important to him and Caesar down the road."
a) "And prices had gone up as well because of the famine, which is why Clodius was giving it free to the people."
It was the other way around. The shortage of grain was caused by Clodius' law.
b) It's a bit confusing when Cam says that Pompey tried to get the imperium but failed. And then Ray says that Pompey has the imperium. This is what Pompey tried to get:
c) "He"s got armies again..."
He doesn't have an army. He has 15 legates.
d) "And when you have imperium, you have to leave Rome. But because Pompey's figured out the power is being in Rome, he gets a special dispensation put in there that he can do all these stuff, but he doesn't have to leave Rome."
Pompey didn't get a dispensation like that. He couldn't cross the pomerium however he wished. The dispensation that he got was this:
Now it's finally 56 BC.
• 01:10:14 – Cam: "Clodius is gonna prosecute Milo for political violence. Clodius! I mean the balls on this guy. He's gonna prosecute Milo for political violence. He's been running gangs, having consuls beaten up, but he's gonna prosecute Milo for political violence."
a) Clodius was returning the favor. In 57 BC, Milo prosecuted Clodius for political violence. Now Clodius did the same. Both men are hypocrites.
b) Clodius' gangs never had consuls beaten up. That's too outrageous even for Clodius.
• 01:10:44 – Cam: "Cicero describes it thusly. He wrote a letter to his brother Quintus and he says, '[...] Enraged and white with anger he [Clodius] called out questions to his gang – and he was heard clearly above the shouting – who was it who starved the people? 'Pompey!' his cronies replied. Who wanted to go to Alexandria? 'Pompey!' they called. Who do YOU want to go? 'Crassus!' they replied.' Soooooo, again, Pompey and Crassus being played off against each other."
a) Because Cam and Ray barely touched on the events of 57 BC, it's not clear what "starved the people" or "go to Alexandria" are about. I'll talk about it later.
b) "Soooooo, again, Pompey and Crassus being played off against each other."
A conspiracy theory that was born all because Cam and Ray didn't bother to pay attention to the dates... If this was Caesar scheming to turn Pompey and Crassus on each other (for God knows what reason), how come they are so stupid? Is Crassus ok being used as someone's pawn? Yeah, right.
Cam: "And let's keep in mind that this guy became a tribune of the plebs in the first place because of Caesar’s support. And now he's like, 'Ah, screw you, guys. I'm the most powerful man in Rome now.'"
Ray: "He's the first man in Rome now."
a) Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58! Neither Clodius nor anyone else demanded his recall in June of 58. What wars? What three years of work? He's been there for 3 months!
b) Clodius will question the validity of Caesar's legislations in the summer of 58. But he never suggested his recall from Gaul. Not in 58, not ever.
c) Clodius is not the first man in Rome. Not even he is that delusional.
d) "Now he's gonna deal with Caesar."
He probably did it to annoy Pompey. Because at least one of Caesar's laws was of great importance to Pompey. It was never intended to be taken too seriously. Just an attempt to muddy the waters.
• 59:34 – Cam: "By the way, I think from memory too, his sister was married to Lucullus that he served under, ex-consul. So he's sleeping with his, you know, sister, who's also his boss' wife."
Lucullus volunteered to testify against Clodius at the Bona Dia trial. He claimed that Clodius slept with his wife, whom he divorced for infidelity after his return from the East. His ex-wife was Clodius' third sister, and this is the only source for this claim. It should be taken very carefully because Lucullus hated Clodius.
By the way, Cam dismisses Clodius as batshit crazy, but it was actually Lucullus who was suffering from some mental illness upon his return to Rome.
• 59:56 – Cam: "I mentioned Pompey tries to get the Senate to recall Cicero from exile. Motion gets vetoed. That's in June. And then in August Clodius arranges for one of his slaves to let a dagger fall out of his toga. I don’t think slaves wear togas. Whatever the thing slaves were wearing. Tunic, maybe. And then he was interrogated, the slave. And the slave says, 'Yes, I was sent to murder Pompey.' And suggested it might've been Crassus that had sent him to knife Pompey."
Ray: "Nice. Well done."
Cam: "So Clodius sets this whole thing up. At least according to Cicero. I mean everything we know about this we know from Cicero. Obviously hated this guy. But anyway, let's just go with the story. So Pompey, big, brave general and all, but was terrified that he might be assassinated. So he pulls a Bibulus and he goes home and isn't seen for months. He hides away in his house. And so, you know, the relationship between the triumvirates, Pompey and Crassus is obviously quite strained. There is some suggestion, some of my sources, that Caesar might have been orchestrating all of this? Because, you know, he was like, 'Well, these guys aren't being very nice to me right now.' Pompey was suggesting that maybe Caesar should come home early. You know, Caesar would have this 15-day thanksgiving and Pompey wasn't very happy about it as I mentioned before. But also Pompey was making the suggestion, 'Well, if they're having a thanksgiving for him. For what he's accomplished. Then it's done. His job is done. He doesn't need to be there.' He's supposed to have 5 years term, he's been there two. He's like, 'Well, come home. You don't need any more military victories. You've had enough, come home. You're having thanksgiving. What else you're gonna try and do, right?' So Caesar might have been going, 'Well, ok, these guys are turning on me. I'm gonna make sure they turn on themselves, so they need me. So they don't think they can do it without me. Either as an individual or just the two of them.' It's divide and conquer."
|
a) "Whatever the thing slaves were wearing. Tunic, maybe."
"There was no distinctive dress for slaves. . . Male slaves were not allowed to wear the toga or bulla, nor females the stola, but otherwise they were dressed nearly in the same way as poor people, in clothes of a dark colour (pullati) and slippers (crepidae)." – William Smith
b) "And the slave says, 'Yes, I was sent to murder Pompey.' And suggested it might've been Crassus that had sent him to knife Pompey. . . At least according to Cicero. Everything we know about this we know from Cicero."
Cicero is not the only source for this story. It was also in Plutarch and Asconius. None of them mention Crassus. Not even vaguely!
c) "There is some suggestion, some of my sources, Caesar might have been orchestrating all of this? Because, you know, he was like, 'Well, these guys are not being very nice to me right now.' Pompey was suggesting that maybe Caesar should come home early. Caesar has this 15-day thanksgiving and Pompey wasn't very happy about it as I mentioned before."
Oh for God's sake! This is August of 58! Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58. He's been there for barely 5 months. Nobody was suggesting his recall at this time!
The motion to grant Caesar 15-day thanksgiving was made at the end of 57. The attempts to replace Caesar in Gaul were made in the spring of 56. Cam and Ray keep inserting these events into 58, which completely screws up the timeline and leads to some bizarre conspiracy theories. It's honestly so frustrating.
d) "He's supposed to have 5 years term, he's been there two."
This is 58 BC, not 56!
Cam and Ray are following Goldsworthy's book. Chapters 10 and 11 are dedicated to Caesar's first two years in Gaul (58 and 57). Chapter 12 starts with the words: "Caesar had already been away for two years, and the time had not passed quietly in Rome." Goldsworthy proceeds to describe what's been happening in Rome all the while. But Cam and Ray perceive these events as if they were happening after Caesar's victories that we just finished reading about. Towards the end of chapter 12, Caesar's timeline and Rome's timeline coalesce at the conference of Luca. So, the chapter starts in 58 and ends in 56, but Cam and Ray just lump it all together.
e) 'Well, ok, these guys are turning on me.'
Crassus never turned on Caesar for the whole duration of their partnership.
• 01:02:24 – Ray: "And I want to add on to something you said. Back in June of 58 BCE, when Pompey wants the Senate to recall Cicero and he's told no. Think about that for a moment. A couple of years ago Pompey was the first man in Rome, he was the rock star. He wouldn't have had to ask anything. He would've simply said, 'I want this done' and the momentum was so with him, it would've happened. So not only does he have to ask the Senate about Cicero, he is told no. I mean that just really shows you how far Pompey has come down. It's gotta be shock to this man's ego. Here is his son-in-low getting all these military glories, people are not paying attention to him, the Senate is not only ignoring him, but they're all obviously able to tell him no. Poor Pompey is just pitifully hiding in his house."
a) "He wouldn't have had to ask anything. He would've simply said, 'I want this done' and the momentum was so with him, it would've happened."
Pompey couldn't do shit when he returned from the East! For two years (61 and 60 BC), the Senate was blocking him at every turn. That's why he joined the triumvirate in the first place! I can't believe they forgot something so important.
"After two years Pompey had achieved neither of his key objectives. . . . Cato and others were more inclined to thwart Pompey as a means of cutting him down to size and preventing him from dominating the Republic through his great wealth and fame. Pompey was not the only senator to feel frustration in these years. Crassus, who had at first enjoyed his rival's discomfort, found that many of the same senatorial clique were as willing to block a measure of great importance to him. . . . Pompey and Crassus, the two wealthiest and in some ways most influential men in the Republic, were both finding themselves thwarted by members of the handful of noble families that dominated the Senate. Pompey, in particular, had been rejected when he attempted to become part of this inner elite. Necessary, sensible and popular reforms, along with more questionable measures that may have been politically expedient, were all being blocked by a small minority of aristocrats. The inertia at the heart of the Republic was alienating many citizens at all levels of society. . . With hindsight many would see 60 BC as the year when the disease infecting the Republic became terminal." – Adrian Goldsworthy
b) "So not only does he have to ask the Senate about Cicero, he is told no / the Senate is not only ignoring him, but they're all obviously able to tell him no."
It was not Pompey's proposal. Tribune Lucius Ninnius proposed it to the Senate. Pompey expressed his support. The Senate also supported the proposal, but another tribune, Aelius Ligus, vetoed it.
c) "Here is his son-in-low getting all these military glories, people are not paying attention to him..."
Caesar left for Gaul in March of 58! He has only fought the Helvetii at this point.
Everyone is paying attention to Pompey! A lot is happening in Rome and he is in the thick of things. He is not some forgotten C-list.
• 01:03:12 – Ray: "But he [Pompey] does to a certain degree decide to try to fight back against Clodius. What he does is he pretty much bribes or buys two of the new tribunes. One is Titus Annius Milo and the other one is Publius Sestius. And basically he has them organize gangs. He's in control of them, they're in control of some gangs and their gangs are fighting Clodius' gangs in the streets of Rome."
Cam: "[...] Around about this time Clodius' term as tribune expires, so he has a little bit less power, but he doesn't care. He still got his gangs. And he manages to get himself elected in 56 BC as aedile."
It's 57 BC now.
a) Clodius' tribunate was from December of 59 to December of 58 BC. In December of 58, the new tribunes took up the office. So Clodius' term as tribune expired before Milo took up the office. Clodius was elected aedile for 56. The elections were held in 57, but they were postponed several times thanks to Milo.
b) Pompey supported Milo and Sestius, but it's a huge exaggeration to say that he was in control of their gangs. Milo and Sestius were independent figures and they raised gangs on their own money.
• 01:04:59 – Cam: "Pompey is determined to get Cicero back. For reasons I don't fully understand. He's really going out of his way to try and get Cicero back in Rome. Maybe he thinks he just needs the support of somebody, who can argue well against Clodius. I don't know."
What's there to understand? Pompey is pissed at Clodius. He humiliated Pompey multiple times. He annexed Cyprus, which affected Pompey's Eastern settlements; deprived King Deiotarus of Galatia of the title of high priest of the Magna Mater that Pompey bestowed upon him and instead gave it to Brogitarus, who was his rival (Cam and Ray haven't mentioned this story); stole his hostage; tried to "assassinate" him.
Cicero is one of Clodius' biggest enemies. His exile was Clodius' greatest moment. His return, therefore, will be a major f--- you to Clodius. Not to mention that it's gonna demonstrate how powerful and influential Pompey is. It will also put Cicero in his debt and he could expect certain favors from him.
• 01:05:33 – Cam: "And Caesar goes, 'Well, Pompey's doing that. I'm gonna get on board, because I don't want Cicero to just owe a debt of gratitude to Pompey. I want him to owe me.' So Caesar gets on the bandwagon."
Cam makes it sound as if Caesar volunteered once he saw Pompey do it. That's not the case. Pompey had to persuade Caesar, who wasn't exactly thrilled about it. And Crassus gave his consent at the request of his son Publius.
• 01:06:21 – Cam: "Cicero comes back AND what does he do?"
Ray: "He is so damn happy to be back amongst the Romans. He is the one who proposes to have Caesar 15-day thanksgiving for kicking the crap out of everybody north of the Alpes. But then he's got to thank Pompey as well, so he comes up with this– I don't know if he came up with it, but he is the one who proposes it to the Senate. He thanks Caesar with a 15-day thanksgiving and now he has a way to thank Pompey for his help. And he's got another special commission, which Pompey has used his entire adult life to be the rock star of Rome."
Cicero's first action was to repay Pompey. A few days after his return, he proposed to give Pompey responsibility over grain supply. The motion to grant Caesar 15-day thanksgiving was made at the end of 57.
• 01:07:30 – Cam: "He [Cicero] throws this idea up that he's going to– that the Senate should put Pompey in control of getting grain into Rome. There is grain famine going on in Rome at the moment. And prices had gone up as well because of the famine, which is why Clodius was giving it free to the people. . . But they need a lot of grain and it's hard, there is some sort of [can't make out a word] to get grain in Rome. So he goes, 'Pompey is the man. Pompey is gonna be in charge of getting grain. It's a five year commission. And we’re gonna give him lots of money, lots of supplies.' So Pompey now in power. There is a suggestion that they would give him imperium as well. Where he's trying to get imperium across all of Rome [can't make out the word, because they're talking at the same time]."
Ray: "Over everybody. Yeah."
Cam: "There is part of this. But that didn't work. But he does have some power. He's got armies again, he's on a mission, where he can obviously, you know, reestablish his auctoritas. So that's Cicero’s payback for Pompey at this stage."
Ray: "Yeah. And if I can just add one thing on to that. Normally when you get a commission, you have imperium. And when you have imperium, you have to leave Rome. But because Pompey's figured out the power is being in Rome, he gets a special dispensation put in there that he can do all these stuff, but he doesn't have to leave Rome. So he can travel, he can go out and check things out, and he will, but he does not automatically have to leave Rome for the next five years, which is gonna to be very important to him and Caesar down the road."
a) "And prices had gone up as well because of the famine, which is why Clodius was giving it free to the people."
It was the other way around. The shortage of grain was caused by Clodius' law.
b) It's a bit confusing when Cam says that Pompey tried to get the imperium but failed. And then Ray says that Pompey has the imperium. This is what Pompey tried to get:
"[Pompey] asked for fifteen legates, naming Cicero as the first of these and proclaiming that he would regard him as his second self. So Spinther and Nepos drafted a bill giving Pompeius control of the corn supply throughout the Roman world for a period of five years. It was at this point in the proceedings that Pompeius resorted to his old technique of flying a lute to test the wind of public opinion before committing himself. The tribune Messius brought forward an alternative proposal which would have given Pompeius far greater powers, powers disproportionate in both scope and kind to the nature of his task: control of the treasury, a fleet, an army, and imperium maius in all the provinces – that is, in all probability, almost a duplicate of his command against Mithradates. As usual there were doubts as to what Pompeius really wanted. He himself declared that he was satisfied with the consuls' proposal, but his friends suggested that he would prefer Messius' bill if public opinion would tolerate it. However, it soon became clear that opposition to Messius was too widespread, and so Pompeius accepted the consuls' version, claiming that this was what he had wanted all along." – Robin Seager
c) "He"s got armies again..."
He doesn't have an army. He has 15 legates.
"Unfortunately the names of only two of his fifteen legates are known, Cicero and his brother Quintus. Cicero's own place was largely honorific, but Quintus performed more conventional duties, serving in Sardinia." – Robin Seager
d) "And when you have imperium, you have to leave Rome. But because Pompey's figured out the power is being in Rome, he gets a special dispensation put in there that he can do all these stuff, but he doesn't have to leave Rome."
Pompey didn't get a dispensation like that. He couldn't cross the pomerium however he wished. The dispensation that he got was this:
"He took the duties of his post seriously, and was frequently to be found away from Rome on business connected with it. It is perhaps for that reason that despite his obvious reluctance to cut himself off from politics at Rome, no permanent dispensation for him to enter the city without laying down his imperium was included in the terms of the law; instead, he received an ad hoc dispensation whenever circumstances made his presence in the city essential." – Robin Seager
***
Now it's finally 56 BC.
• 01:10:14 – Cam: "Clodius is gonna prosecute Milo for political violence. Clodius! I mean the balls on this guy. He's gonna prosecute Milo for political violence. He's been running gangs, having consuls beaten up, but he's gonna prosecute Milo for political violence."
a) Clodius was returning the favor. In 57 BC, Milo prosecuted Clodius for political violence. Now Clodius did the same. Both men are hypocrites.
b) Clodius' gangs never had consuls beaten up. That's too outrageous even for Clodius.
• 01:10:44 – Cam: "Cicero describes it thusly. He wrote a letter to his brother Quintus and he says, '[...] Enraged and white with anger he [Clodius] called out questions to his gang – and he was heard clearly above the shouting – who was it who starved the people? 'Pompey!' his cronies replied. Who wanted to go to Alexandria? 'Pompey!' they called. Who do YOU want to go? 'Crassus!' they replied.' Soooooo, again, Pompey and Crassus being played off against each other."
a) Because Cam and Ray barely touched on the events of 57 BC, it's not clear what "starved the people" or "go to Alexandria" are about. I'll talk about it later.
b) "Soooooo, again, Pompey and Crassus being played off against each other."
A conspiracy theory that was born all because Cam and Ray didn't bother to pay attention to the dates... If this was Caesar scheming to turn Pompey and Crassus on each other (for God knows what reason), how come they are so stupid? Is Crassus ok being used as someone's pawn? Yeah, right.
Clodius had close ties to Crassus, not to Caesar. Who bribed the juries to acquit Clodius at the Bona Dea trial? It was Crassus. He is the one who has the most leverage over Clodius. And he enjoys poking at Pompey.
("Cato" refers to Gaius Gato, not Cato the Younger).
"On that day Cato vehemently inveighed against Pompey, and throughout his speech arraigned him as though he were in the dock. He spoke a great deal about me, much against my will, though in highly laudatory terms. When he denounced Pompey's treacherous conduct to myself, he was listened to amid profound silence on the part of my ill-wishers. Pompey replied to him in vehement terms, and made an obvious allusion to Crassus, openly declaring "that he himself would be better prepared to safeguard his own life than Africanus had been, who was murdered by C. Carbo."
So it appears to me that issues of great importance are developing. For Pompey clearly understands this, and talks to me about it—that plots are being hatched against his life; that C. Cato is being backed up by Crassus; that Clodius is being supplied with money, and that both of them are being encouraged, not only by Crassus, but by Curio and Bibulus and the rest of his detractors; that he has to take strenuous measures to prevent being utterly crushed, with a speech-swallowing populace practically estranged from him, with a nobility hostile, a Senate unfairly prejudiced, and the youth of the country without principle." – Cicero
c) Of course, Caesar keeps an eye on what is going on in Rome. But he spends most of the year on military campaigns deep in Gaul. There is a limit to how fast he receives news of the events in Rome. There is a tendency of investing Caesar with an almost superhuman cunning that you see in movies or tv shows. He was a very smart man; in many ways, he was a genius. But he can't be in two places at once. He is busy in Gaul, not only fighting battles but also navigating a complex political situation there.
• 01:13:01 – Cam: "We have to keep in mind that, you know, the big threat to Caesar here is if he loses his praetorship, his governorship, his proconsulship, and he loses his army, his position, he has to go back to Rome and he can very well be charged with, you know, crimes of pillaging and all this kind of stuff."
If his enemies can get their hands on him, it's his consulship that they will prosecute him for. Not anything that he's done in Gaul so far. No Roman saw anything wrong with a conquest of Gaul. Also, Gaul is not a Roman province yet. The rules of Roman governorship do not apply to it. If he had pillaged Cisalpine Gaul, Transalpine Gaul, or Illyricum, then you could bring up the charges of misconduct. But he's not doing any military activity inside his provinces.
• 01:13:41 – Cam: "So, meanwhile, Cicero decides to advocate for the repeal of the Campanian law himself. Like, he's just been brought back to Rome partly because of Caesar. 'Thanks, Caesar.' Gives him a thanks. Now he decides to repeal the Campanian law, which obviously isn't gonna go down well with Caesar. So, he does that. So now he's pissing off Caesar."
Ray: "Yeah, and... I was just gonna say real quick that Cicero's brother Quintus, who was working for Pompey. He is told to convey a message to his older brother. That has pretty much states, 'That Caesar and Pompey didn't bring your old scrawny white ass back to Rome to give us a hard time. Ok? Shut your mouth.' Now, Cicero was always against the land deal. That's just who he is. But the courage or the stupidity or whatever that he had to present something clearly that would fly the face of one of his benefactor, one of those people that were keeping him out of trouble, keeping him alive. I don't know if that's stupidity, bravery or whatever, but yeah… As much as triumvirate is falling apart, that's just a bad move on his part, I don't care how you were get it."
Cam: "So Cicero then turns around and changes his position on the whole thing. And gives a speech, part of which he says [reads a portion of the speech in which Cicero urges the Senate not to recall Caesar]. So Caesar's command gets confirmed and later extended. Cicero gets a warning from Pompey to, you know, stfu."
a) Pompey's message to Quintus was after the conference of Luca. Nor was it that vulgar. This is what Cicero writes in a letter to a friend ("acts of Caesar" refers to the agrarian law):
b) "So Cicero then turns around and changes his position on the whole thing. And gives a speech, part of which he says..."
This speech had nothing to do with Campanian land! As I mentioned earlier, it was called "On the Consular Provinces" and was given in May of 56 BC, after the conference of Luca.
c) It was neither bravery nor stupidity. He simply thought that Pompey no longer cared about the agrarian law and now is a good time to repeal it.
d) Now, let's go back to the events of 57 BC to better understand Pompey's state of mind...
At the end of 57, Pompey had a lot on his plate. Clodius went berserk after the return of Cicero, running amok on the streets of Rome, and even the Temple of the Nymphs got burned down. In addition to that, Pompey had a hard time establishing the supply of grain. Rome was starving (hence why Clodius said, "Who was it who starved the people?") and Pompey's position really weakened as a result of all this. The case of Ptolemy XII also required urgent attention 'cause he was still waiting for his restoration to the Egyptian throne. This is when one of the newly elected tribunes, Rutilius Lupus, proposed to revise Caesar's agrarian reform. Pompey was absent from Rome and didn't comment on it, but the Senate refused to discuss it in his absence.
Then, in January of 56, Rutilius Lupus started actively pushing for Pompey's appointment to Egypt (hence why Clodius said, "Who wanted to go to Alexandria?"). But there was a lot of opposition to it because nobody wanted to give Pompey so much power. The struggle over Egypt lasted the whole winter. It was during this period that Cassius Dio wrote: "[Pompey] attempted to persuade the consuls not to read Caesar's letters immediately but to conceal the facts as long as possible, until the glory of his deeds should win its own way abroad, and furthermore to send some one to relieve him even before the regular time."
Things were not going well for Pompey. Clodius, along with Gaius Cato, kept harassing him. Pompey himself believed that the optimates were overjoyed to see him weakened. And there was still no grain.
In April of 56, after all this drama, the Senate finally gave Pompey a huge sum to purchase grain. And it was at this meeting that Cicero brought up the question of the Campanian land. He did it without prior agreement with Pompey, but the latter expressed no displeasure.
That's when Crassus went to Ravenna to meet with Caesar. The fact that Crassus traveled there in person (he could've easily sent a letter) shows just how serious he perceived the situation to be. And that's how we reach the conference of Luca.
• 01:18:37 – Cam: "So basically Caesar says, 'Come and talk to me.' He calls this most amazing meeting. . . . And he basically sits these guys down. Individually, I think, and then together. And says, 'Look, we need each other. You need me, I need you. We can’t do this alone. We need to have each other’s backs.'"
Ray: "I just think it's interesting that when triumvirate was first formed, Caesar was clearly the junior partner. . . And now, even though they're all threatened, the situation has reversed: Caesar calls t h e m to him. And not only does he present the argument, but he uses a lot of his charm and he says, 'Look, there is still a lot we can get out from teaming up. I'm under attack, my command is under attack, Crassus feels worried, because Pompey now has an army again, he has imperium, Crassus doesn't, so he needs to feel some kind of security, some kind of protection, even against his own former colleague, his consul.' And so Caesar’s like, 'I have a beautiful idea. It's been more than ten years, why don't you two run jointly for the consulship. You can protect me and my commission. Hell, you can extend my commission for me. You two can be in power for a year, you'll have imperium, no one can touch you. And when you get out, we give you a nice juicy provinces. You can have armies, you can have your imperium as proconsul. No one will be able to touch you. This is what’s best for all of us. What do you say, guys?'"
Cam: "And meanwhile while they're having this meeting in Luca. Obviously, you know, Caesar can’t go back to Rome. So they're having this meeting in, you know, Luca. And they come to him. According to Appian and Plutarch, 200 senators trudged north to Luca as well, with their entourages. There is like 120 lictors there. But they're all waiting outside. Caesar and Crassus and Pompey sitting down, just carving up the next ten years of Rome's political future, and the rest of the senators, they're just waiting outside to see what the news is. And when Cicero hears of this, like he is apparently just shocked. Like he can't believe that that is where Rome now is. Where these three guys– which everyone kind of knew, you know, they started to work it out that there was plan here, that these guys were working together. I don't think– they never stood up and say, 'Hey, we're a triumvirate.' But people who knew what was going on kind of worked it out. But NOW it was just plain as the eyes on your face that these three guys were running the show. And no one else, not the Senate, no one else had any say in what was going on."
a) Both of Caesar's speeches are completely made-up. We can guess what they agreed upon based on their future moves.
b) "And he basically sits these guys down. Individually, I think, and then together."
No, he only spoke to Crassus separately. Assuming that all three triumvirs were present at Luca, there was no individual meeting with Pompey.
c) "I just think it's interesting that when triumvirate was first formed, Caesar was clearly the junior partner. . . And now, even though they're all threatened, the situation has reversed: Caesar calls t h e m to him."
He is no longer a junior partner, but calling them to him is not a sign of his status. He simply can't come to Rome or even to Italy while he is the proconsul of Gaul. So he has to ask them to come to him.
d) "Crassus feels worried, because Pompey now has an army again"
Pompey doesn't have an army! He is in charge of grain supply, he has the imperium and 15 legates to help him with the task, but he doesn't have an army.
e) "so he needs to feel some kind of security, some kind of protection, even against his own former colleague, his consul."
"Even"? Plenty of consular colleagues hated each other.
f) "According to Appian and Plutarch, 200 senators trudged north to Luca as well, with their entourages. There is like 120 lictors there. But they're all waiting outside. Caesar and Crassus and Pompey sitting down, just carving up the next ten years of Rome's political future, and the rest of the senators, they’re just waiting outside to see what the news is."
I don't understand how something like this doesn't trigger one's bullshit radar. It sounds fake as hell.
If 200 senators, 120 lictors and their entourage all had the time to pack their stuff and travel to Luca, it means all of Rome knew about the upcoming meeting and went to join the party. But Cicero had no idea about it! None!
It's more likely that a messenger from Caesar intercepted Pompey on his way to Sardinia and Pompey made a last-minute detour. And those 200 senators were trickling to and from Cisalpine Gaul over a period of time to strike a deal with Caesar, receive favors and money from him, etc.
g) It's not even certain if Crassus was there! If this meeting was so huge and public, how come we're not even sure if one of the three guys was there? I would like to think that he was. But a strong argument can be made that he wasn't.
h) "And when Cicero hears of this, like he is apparently just shocked. Like he can't believe that that is where Rome now is."
That's not why he was shocked! That the triumvirs are strong is nothing new. He was shocked because he was completely blindsided by Pompey. He believed that Pompey was ok with the repeal of the agrarian law. Cicero proposed it to the Senate on April 5th, and they accepted it. The proposal was to be debated on May 15th. But now Cicero would have to take back what he said, which would make him look like a damn fool.
i) "I don't think– they never stood up and say, 'Hey, we're triumvirate.'"
Because they were never called that in their own day. "The First Triumvirate" is a term coined by historians.
j) "But NOW it was just plain as the eyes on your face that these three guys were running the show."
Everyone knew about their alliance since 59 BC! Pompey married Caesar's daughter ffs!
In the second half of Caesar's consulship, their enemies launched a massive smear campaign against the three men. The amount of filth that was dumped on them was spectacular (where do you think stories of Caesar having sex with Pompey's ex-wife and Crassus' wife come from?). Terentius Varro called them "a three-headed beast." Cicero and co. strongly believed that Pompey and Crassus will succeed Caesar in the consulship (that didn't happen). Why? Because everyone knew about the alliance.
k) "And no one else, not the Senate, no one else had any say in what was going on."
So many dramatic statements... The triumvirate was powerful, but not all-powerful.
l) There is one more reason why this meeting is significant... It was the last time that Caesar saw either Crassus or Pompey. Crassus will die in 53, so there was no other chance to see him. But Pompey? It's kind of sad. In the prelude to the Civil War, Caesar will ask him so many times for a meeting, and Pompey would always refuse. Did they see each other across the barricades at Dyrrachium? Caesar will cross half of the known world to try to catch up to him, but to no avail.
If his enemies can get their hands on him, it's his consulship that they will prosecute him for. Not anything that he's done in Gaul so far. No Roman saw anything wrong with a conquest of Gaul. Also, Gaul is not a Roman province yet. The rules of Roman governorship do not apply to it. If he had pillaged Cisalpine Gaul, Transalpine Gaul, or Illyricum, then you could bring up the charges of misconduct. But he's not doing any military activity inside his provinces.
• 01:13:41 – Cam: "So, meanwhile, Cicero decides to advocate for the repeal of the Campanian law himself. Like, he's just been brought back to Rome partly because of Caesar. 'Thanks, Caesar.' Gives him a thanks. Now he decides to repeal the Campanian law, which obviously isn't gonna go down well with Caesar. So, he does that. So now he's pissing off Caesar."
Ray: "Yeah, and... I was just gonna say real quick that Cicero's brother Quintus, who was working for Pompey. He is told to convey a message to his older brother. That has pretty much states, 'That Caesar and Pompey didn't bring your old scrawny white ass back to Rome to give us a hard time. Ok? Shut your mouth.' Now, Cicero was always against the land deal. That's just who he is. But the courage or the stupidity or whatever that he had to present something clearly that would fly the face of one of his benefactor, one of those people that were keeping him out of trouble, keeping him alive. I don't know if that's stupidity, bravery or whatever, but yeah… As much as triumvirate is falling apart, that's just a bad move on his part, I don't care how you were get it."
Cam: "So Cicero then turns around and changes his position on the whole thing. And gives a speech, part of which he says [reads a portion of the speech in which Cicero urges the Senate not to recall Caesar]. So Caesar's command gets confirmed and later extended. Cicero gets a warning from Pompey to, you know, stfu."
a) Pompey's message to Quintus was after the conference of Luca. Nor was it that vulgar. This is what Cicero writes in a letter to a friend ("acts of Caesar" refers to the agrarian law):
"[Pompey] grumbled a great deal: mentioned his own services to me: recalled what he had again and again said to my brother himself about the "acts" of Caesar, and what my brother had undertaken in regard to me; and called my brother himself to witness that what he had done in regard to my recall he had done with the consent of Caesar: and asked him to commend to me the latter's policy and claims, that I should not attack, even if I would not or could not support them."
b) "So Cicero then turns around and changes his position on the whole thing. And gives a speech, part of which he says..."
This speech had nothing to do with Campanian land! As I mentioned earlier, it was called "On the Consular Provinces" and was given in May of 56 BC, after the conference of Luca.
c) It was neither bravery nor stupidity. He simply thought that Pompey no longer cared about the agrarian law and now is a good time to repeal it.
d) Now, let's go back to the events of 57 BC to better understand Pompey's state of mind...
At the end of 57, Pompey had a lot on his plate. Clodius went berserk after the return of Cicero, running amok on the streets of Rome, and even the Temple of the Nymphs got burned down. In addition to that, Pompey had a hard time establishing the supply of grain. Rome was starving (hence why Clodius said, "Who was it who starved the people?") and Pompey's position really weakened as a result of all this. The case of Ptolemy XII also required urgent attention 'cause he was still waiting for his restoration to the Egyptian throne. This is when one of the newly elected tribunes, Rutilius Lupus, proposed to revise Caesar's agrarian reform. Pompey was absent from Rome and didn't comment on it, but the Senate refused to discuss it in his absence.
"It was the refusal of the optimates to concede his requirements and grant him political acceptance on his own valuation that had driven him to accept Caesar's overtures in 60, but now it seemed worthwhile to test their reactions once more and see if their attitude had changed. . . . [Pompeius] moved with customary caution to test senatorial reactions. At a moment when he himself was absent from Rome on business connected with the corn commission, one of the new tribunes for 56, P. Rutilius Lupus, whose links with Pompeius were only later to become fully apparent, raised the question of the Campanian land in the senate." – Robin Seager
Then, in January of 56, Rutilius Lupus started actively pushing for Pompey's appointment to Egypt (hence why Clodius said, "Who wanted to go to Alexandria?"). But there was a lot of opposition to it because nobody wanted to give Pompey so much power. The struggle over Egypt lasted the whole winter. It was during this period that Cassius Dio wrote: "[Pompey] attempted to persuade the consuls not to read Caesar's letters immediately but to conceal the facts as long as possible, until the glory of his deeds should win its own way abroad, and furthermore to send some one to relieve him even before the regular time."
Things were not going well for Pompey. Clodius, along with Gaius Cato, kept harassing him. Pompey himself believed that the optimates were overjoyed to see him weakened. And there was still no grain.
In April of 56, after all this drama, the Senate finally gave Pompey a huge sum to purchase grain. And it was at this meeting that Cicero brought up the question of the Campanian land. He did it without prior agreement with Pompey, but the latter expressed no displeasure.
"[Pompey] had just been voted a substantial budget by the Senate to fund his activities and seemed to be considering whether it was worthwhile maintaining the alliance. The triumvirate seemed on the point of crumbling." – Adrian Goldsworthy
That's when Crassus went to Ravenna to meet with Caesar. The fact that Crassus traveled there in person (he could've easily sent a letter) shows just how serious he perceived the situation to be. And that's how we reach the conference of Luca.
• 01:18:37 – Cam: "So basically Caesar says, 'Come and talk to me.' He calls this most amazing meeting. . . . And he basically sits these guys down. Individually, I think, and then together. And says, 'Look, we need each other. You need me, I need you. We can’t do this alone. We need to have each other’s backs.'"
Ray: "I just think it's interesting that when triumvirate was first formed, Caesar was clearly the junior partner. . . And now, even though they're all threatened, the situation has reversed: Caesar calls t h e m to him. And not only does he present the argument, but he uses a lot of his charm and he says, 'Look, there is still a lot we can get out from teaming up. I'm under attack, my command is under attack, Crassus feels worried, because Pompey now has an army again, he has imperium, Crassus doesn't, so he needs to feel some kind of security, some kind of protection, even against his own former colleague, his consul.' And so Caesar’s like, 'I have a beautiful idea. It's been more than ten years, why don't you two run jointly for the consulship. You can protect me and my commission. Hell, you can extend my commission for me. You two can be in power for a year, you'll have imperium, no one can touch you. And when you get out, we give you a nice juicy provinces. You can have armies, you can have your imperium as proconsul. No one will be able to touch you. This is what’s best for all of us. What do you say, guys?'"
Cam: "And meanwhile while they're having this meeting in Luca. Obviously, you know, Caesar can’t go back to Rome. So they're having this meeting in, you know, Luca. And they come to him. According to Appian and Plutarch, 200 senators trudged north to Luca as well, with their entourages. There is like 120 lictors there. But they're all waiting outside. Caesar and Crassus and Pompey sitting down, just carving up the next ten years of Rome's political future, and the rest of the senators, they're just waiting outside to see what the news is. And when Cicero hears of this, like he is apparently just shocked. Like he can't believe that that is where Rome now is. Where these three guys– which everyone kind of knew, you know, they started to work it out that there was plan here, that these guys were working together. I don't think– they never stood up and say, 'Hey, we're a triumvirate.' But people who knew what was going on kind of worked it out. But NOW it was just plain as the eyes on your face that these three guys were running the show. And no one else, not the Senate, no one else had any say in what was going on."
a) Both of Caesar's speeches are completely made-up. We can guess what they agreed upon based on their future moves.
b) "And he basically sits these guys down. Individually, I think, and then together."
No, he only spoke to Crassus separately. Assuming that all three triumvirs were present at Luca, there was no individual meeting with Pompey.
c) "I just think it's interesting that when triumvirate was first formed, Caesar was clearly the junior partner. . . And now, even though they're all threatened, the situation has reversed: Caesar calls t h e m to him."
He is no longer a junior partner, but calling them to him is not a sign of his status. He simply can't come to Rome or even to Italy while he is the proconsul of Gaul. So he has to ask them to come to him.
d) "Crassus feels worried, because Pompey now has an army again"
Pompey doesn't have an army! He is in charge of grain supply, he has the imperium and 15 legates to help him with the task, but he doesn't have an army.
e) "so he needs to feel some kind of security, some kind of protection, even against his own former colleague, his consul."
"Even"? Plenty of consular colleagues hated each other.
f) "According to Appian and Plutarch, 200 senators trudged north to Luca as well, with their entourages. There is like 120 lictors there. But they're all waiting outside. Caesar and Crassus and Pompey sitting down, just carving up the next ten years of Rome's political future, and the rest of the senators, they’re just waiting outside to see what the news is."
I don't understand how something like this doesn't trigger one's bullshit radar. It sounds fake as hell.
If 200 senators, 120 lictors and their entourage all had the time to pack their stuff and travel to Luca, it means all of Rome knew about the upcoming meeting and went to join the party. But Cicero had no idea about it! None!
It's more likely that a messenger from Caesar intercepted Pompey on his way to Sardinia and Pompey made a last-minute detour. And those 200 senators were trickling to and from Cisalpine Gaul over a period of time to strike a deal with Caesar, receive favors and money from him, etc.
"Such is the prelude to what is often called the conference of Luca. Whether what happened at Luca deserves that imposing name is another matter. In the later sources the meeting takes on the appearance of a planned summit conference, at which the big three settled their differences and ordained the course of affairs for the foreseeable future while magistrates and senators kicked their heels outside, waiting to hear what had been decided. This picture must be largely fantasy. In the first place there was plainly no planning: the meeting at Luca was the result of an almost panic response by Crassus and Caesar to a sudden and drastic threat to their interests. Nor is it certain that Crassus was at Luca at all." – Robin Seager
"The story evidently grew with the telling, and the few accounts written nearer to the time suggest less organisation and much last-minute improvisation." – Adrian Goldsworthy
g) It's not even certain if Crassus was there! If this meeting was so huge and public, how come we're not even sure if one of the three guys was there? I would like to think that he was. But a strong argument can be made that he wasn't.
"That he should have been present is at first sight plausible. His own interests were very much at stake, and they were certainly taken account of at Luca: he emerged with the prospect of a second consulship and a major command in which to win military glory. But Cicero’s letter to Spinther in 54, the only almost contemporary account, strongly suggests that Crassus did not accompany Caesar to Luca. His possible failure to do so can be explained in the light of his present relations with Pompeius. These had never been more strained: indeed the quarrel between Crassus and Pompeius must have greatly encouraged Cicero’s hopes of breaking up the coalition. Both Crassus and Caesar may have felt that in the circumstances a meeting between Crassus and Pompeius could only make matters worse and that it would prove a task too great even for Caesar’s diplomatic talents to reconcile them if they met face to face. If on the other hand Caesar alone met Pompeius, he might be able to save the situation. Crassus could trust Caesar to protect his interests simply because his objectives had to be secured if the public purpose of the meeting, a demonstration that the dynasts were still friends, was to be achieved. The obvious practical proof of this reconciliation would be a joint consulship for Pompeius and Crassus, to be followed by commands that further asserted their mutual parity and good will. Caesar was not eligible for a consulship, nor did he want one at this time: his own aim was a renewal of his command in Gaul. Besides, there was no public quarrel between Caesar and his partners: it was Pompeius and Crassus who had, if all went well, to give proof of their renewed alliance. So the only scheme that Caesar could rationally propose to Pompeius was bound to give Crassus what he wanted. Therefore, whatever his personal feelings, he could leave the matter in Caesar’s hands without qualms." – Robin Seager
h) "And when Cicero hears of this, like he is apparently just shocked. Like he can't believe that that is where Rome now is."
That's not why he was shocked! That the triumvirs are strong is nothing new. He was shocked because he was completely blindsided by Pompey. He believed that Pompey was ok with the repeal of the agrarian law. Cicero proposed it to the Senate on April 5th, and they accepted it. The proposal was to be debated on May 15th. But now Cicero would have to take back what he said, which would make him look like a damn fool.
"Pompeius' behavior over the Campanian land had made [Cicero] look an utter fool, and the optimates, who had always resented his talent and his vanity, took great pleasure in his discomfiture, which compensated them for the loss of their other chief source of entertainment, Clodius' attacks on Pompeius." – Robin Seager
i) "I don't think– they never stood up and say, 'Hey, we're triumvirate.'"
Because they were never called that in their own day. "The First Triumvirate" is a term coined by historians.
j) "But NOW it was just plain as the eyes on your face that these three guys were running the show."
Everyone knew about their alliance since 59 BC! Pompey married Caesar's daughter ffs!
In the second half of Caesar's consulship, their enemies launched a massive smear campaign against the three men. The amount of filth that was dumped on them was spectacular (where do you think stories of Caesar having sex with Pompey's ex-wife and Crassus' wife come from?). Terentius Varro called them "a three-headed beast." Cicero and co. strongly believed that Pompey and Crassus will succeed Caesar in the consulship (that didn't happen). Why? Because everyone knew about the alliance.
k) "And no one else, not the Senate, no one else had any say in what was going on."
So many dramatic statements... The triumvirate was powerful, but not all-powerful.
"...it did not prove easy for them to achieve the ends they had set themselves at Luca. At no time during the period of their uneasy co-operation did they find it possible to exercise anything approaching effective control over elections at any level." – Robin Seager
l) There is one more reason why this meeting is significant... It was the last time that Caesar saw either Crassus or Pompey. Crassus will die in 53, so there was no other chance to see him. But Pompey? It's kind of sad. In the prelude to the Civil War, Caesar will ask him so many times for a meeting, and Pompey would always refuse. Did they see each other across the barricades at Dyrrachium? Caesar will cross half of the known world to try to catch up to him, but to no avail.
"Agreement was reached. Though nobody was to suspect the fact, Caesar was never to meet Crassus again, or Pompey either." – J.P.V.D. Balsdon
• 01:23:00 – Cam: "They're gonna stand for consulship. But... they can't stand for consulship. Because the guy, who is presiding over the elections, Lentulus Marcellinus, says, 'No, you missed the cut off date'. . . . But they just held on. That guy's term expired, there was intermediary period, where they could get their nominations in, they did. . . And then there was this brutal campaign against them. . . . So, Crassus' son Publius, who has been in Gaul with Caesar, we've mentioned it before, one of Caesar's right-hand men. He comes back to Rome with a large number of soldiers, so they could 'vote.' Yeah."
Ray: "With their swords."
Cam: "Which they weren’t supposed to bring. We’ve talked about this before, they weren't supposed to bring swords into Rome. Anyway, they come in. 'Oh, we're here to 'vote.'' On election day there is this massive amount of violence."
a) "Lentulus Marcellinus, says, 'No, you missed the cut off date' / there was this brutal campaign against them"
Whatever happened to "they were running the show and no one had any say" from two minutes ago?
b) The soldiers did not bring the swords into the city! No source says that. Cicero would've certainly mentioned something like this.
Of course, their job was to look intimidating and use their muscles if fighting broke out. But that doesn't mean that they didn't come to vote for real. Tribunes, prefects, centurions, all belonged to the First class, whose votes were most valuable. So they were certainly sent both to vote and use their elbows if need be.
• 01:24:52 – Cam: "So Cato the Younger is trying to get voted as praetor. It's too much violence. The election of the new aediles, there is so much fighting that even Pompey ended up spattered with someone else's blood. . . . But Clodius is still there. He's not aedile anymore, he's not a tribune anymore, but he is still there, he still ready to cause trouble."
a) There was no violence in the praetorship elections. Cato lost because Pompey thwarted him. When it looked like Cato might win, Pompey dissolved the Assembly on the pretext that he heard thunder. And then embarked on a massive bribery campaign for other candidates.
b) "The elections of the new aediles, there is so much fighting that even Pompey ended up spattered with someone else's blood."
Sadly, Julia miscarried on this occasion.
c) Clodius was not causing trouble. After the conference of Luca, he made peace with Pompey. He will remain pretty quiet until Crassus' death.
• 01:25:39 – Cam: "Cicero gave this speech attacking Clodius. Clodius was attacking this guy Rufus and Cicero defended him. And Cicero's speech says this about Clodius. He says, 'He was having sex with–' Oh no, he said, 'Clodia was having sex with that woman's husband. I mean, sorry, her brother.'"
a) In 56 BC, Marcus Caelius Rufus prosecuted Lucius Calpurnius Bestia for electoral bribery. The latter was acquitted, but Caelius prosecuted him again, and this time it was a success. At the same time, Caelius was prosecuted by Bestia's son, Lucius Sempronius Atratinus. Caelius was accused of orchestrating the rioting in Naples, the assassination of Alexandrian ambassadors, and the attempt to poison Clodia (Clodius' second sister). He was acquitted through Cicero's defense.
b) 'Clodia was having sex with that woman's husband. I mean, sorry, her brother.'
How is this incest? It means that Clodia was having sex with some woman's brother.
Cicero was addressing the accusation that Caelius tried to poison Clodia and said that he [Cicero] has "a quarrel with that woman's husband—brother, I meant to say; I am always making this mistake."
• 01:26:59 – Cam: "So Pompey dedicates a new theatre and decides that they're gonna have games and races. 'Five hundred lions were consumed in five days of combat. As a special novelty eighteen elephants were made to fight with soldiers.' According to Cicero, 'the poor beasts were quiet and harmless. When wounded with the lances, they turned away, threw up their trunks, and trotted around the circus, crying, as if in protest against wanton cruelty.' And Cicero goes on to say, 'There remained the hunts, which lasted five days. All say that they were very fine. But what pleasure can a sensible person find in seeing a clumsy performer turn by a wild beast, or a noble animal pierced with a hunting spear? The last day was given to the elephants; not interesting to me, however delightful to the rabble. A certain pity was felt for them, as if the elephants had some affinity with man.'"
This is 55 BC.
This part is Froude, not Cicero: "Five hundred lions were consumed in five days of combat. As a special novelty eighteen elephants were made to fight with soldiers. . . . the poor beasts were quiet and harmless. When wounded with the lances, they turned away, threw up their trunks, and trotted around the circus, crying, as if in protest against wanton cruelty." Froude himself is largely paraphrasing Cassius Dio.
The last quote is Cicero, but the translation is rather kind to him. The ending sounds as if he alone felt pity for the elephants. But he actually says that everyone felt sorry for the elephants.
Cam and Ray haven't mentioned Balbus' trial in the summer of 56 BC. I don't think they were aware of it since it's not in Goldsworthy's book (or Froude's).
In 72 BC, Balbus, among other men, received Roman citizenship from Pompey for his services in the Sertorian War. He was now accused of illegally obtaining said citizenship. It wasn't an attack on Balbus himself, but on the triumvirs (just as a reminder, Balbus is Caesar's key agent and his right-hand man).
Caesar couldn't defend Balbus in person, so his partners had to do it. Both Pompey and Crassus defended Balbus, as did Cicero. Obviously, they won the case. A quote from Cicero's speech:
Episode 17 is coming...
Ray: "With their swords."
Cam: "Which they weren’t supposed to bring. We’ve talked about this before, they weren't supposed to bring swords into Rome. Anyway, they come in. 'Oh, we're here to 'vote.'' On election day there is this massive amount of violence."
a) "Lentulus Marcellinus, says, 'No, you missed the cut off date' / there was this brutal campaign against them"
Whatever happened to "they were running the show and no one had any say" from two minutes ago?
b) The soldiers did not bring the swords into the city! No source says that. Cicero would've certainly mentioned something like this.
Of course, their job was to look intimidating and use their muscles if fighting broke out. But that doesn't mean that they didn't come to vote for real. Tribunes, prefects, centurions, all belonged to the First class, whose votes were most valuable. So they were certainly sent both to vote and use their elbows if need be.
• 01:24:52 – Cam: "So Cato the Younger is trying to get voted as praetor. It's too much violence. The election of the new aediles, there is so much fighting that even Pompey ended up spattered with someone else's blood. . . . But Clodius is still there. He's not aedile anymore, he's not a tribune anymore, but he is still there, he still ready to cause trouble."
a) There was no violence in the praetorship elections. Cato lost because Pompey thwarted him. When it looked like Cato might win, Pompey dissolved the Assembly on the pretext that he heard thunder. And then embarked on a massive bribery campaign for other candidates.
b) "The elections of the new aediles, there is so much fighting that even Pompey ended up spattered with someone else's blood."
Sadly, Julia miscarried on this occasion.
"It once happened that at an election of aediles people came to blows, and many were killed in the vicinity of Pompey and he was covered with their blood, so that he changed his garments. His servants carried these garments to his house with much confusion and haste, and his young wife, who chanced to be with child, at sight of the blood-stained toga, fainted away and with difficulty regained her senses, and in consequence of the shock and her sufferings, miscarried." – Plutarch
c) Clodius was not causing trouble. After the conference of Luca, he made peace with Pompey. He will remain pretty quiet until Crassus' death.
"But Clodius had meanwhile leaped over to the side of Pompey and espoused his cause again, in the hope that if he should give him any help in securing his present objects, he would make him thoroughly his friend." – Cassius Dio
• 01:25:39 – Cam: "Cicero gave this speech attacking Clodius. Clodius was attacking this guy Rufus and Cicero defended him. And Cicero's speech says this about Clodius. He says, 'He was having sex with–' Oh no, he said, 'Clodia was having sex with that woman's husband. I mean, sorry, her brother.'"
a) In 56 BC, Marcus Caelius Rufus prosecuted Lucius Calpurnius Bestia for electoral bribery. The latter was acquitted, but Caelius prosecuted him again, and this time it was a success. At the same time, Caelius was prosecuted by Bestia's son, Lucius Sempronius Atratinus. Caelius was accused of orchestrating the rioting in Naples, the assassination of Alexandrian ambassadors, and the attempt to poison Clodia (Clodius' second sister). He was acquitted through Cicero's defense.
b) 'Clodia was having sex with that woman's husband. I mean, sorry, her brother.'
How is this incest? It means that Clodia was having sex with some woman's brother.
Cicero was addressing the accusation that Caelius tried to poison Clodia and said that he [Cicero] has "a quarrel with that woman's husband—brother, I meant to say; I am always making this mistake."
• 01:26:59 – Cam: "So Pompey dedicates a new theatre and decides that they're gonna have games and races. 'Five hundred lions were consumed in five days of combat. As a special novelty eighteen elephants were made to fight with soldiers.' According to Cicero, 'the poor beasts were quiet and harmless. When wounded with the lances, they turned away, threw up their trunks, and trotted around the circus, crying, as if in protest against wanton cruelty.' And Cicero goes on to say, 'There remained the hunts, which lasted five days. All say that they were very fine. But what pleasure can a sensible person find in seeing a clumsy performer turn by a wild beast, or a noble animal pierced with a hunting spear? The last day was given to the elephants; not interesting to me, however delightful to the rabble. A certain pity was felt for them, as if the elephants had some affinity with man.'"
This is 55 BC.
This part is Froude, not Cicero: "Five hundred lions were consumed in five days of combat. As a special novelty eighteen elephants were made to fight with soldiers. . . . the poor beasts were quiet and harmless. When wounded with the lances, they turned away, threw up their trunks, and trotted around the circus, crying, as if in protest against wanton cruelty." Froude himself is largely paraphrasing Cassius Dio.
The last quote is Cicero, but the translation is rather kind to him. The ending sounds as if he alone felt pity for the elephants. But he actually says that everyone felt sorry for the elephants.
"There remain the wild-beast hunts, two a day for five days—magnificent; there is no denying it. But what pleasure can it possibly be to a man of culture, when either a puny human being is mangled by a most powerful beast, or a splendid beast is transfixed with a hunting-spear? And even if all this is something to be seen, you have seen it more than once; and I, who was a spectator, saw nothing new in it. The last day was that of the elephants, and on that day the mob and crowd were greatly impressed, but manifested no pleasure. Indeed the result was a certain compassion and a kind of feeling that that huge beast has a fellowship with the human race."
***
Cam and Ray haven't mentioned Balbus' trial in the summer of 56 BC. I don't think they were aware of it since it's not in Goldsworthy's book (or Froude's).
In 72 BC, Balbus, among other men, received Roman citizenship from Pompey for his services in the Sertorian War. He was now accused of illegally obtaining said citizenship. It wasn't an attack on Balbus himself, but on the triumvirs (just as a reminder, Balbus is Caesar's key agent and his right-hand man).
Caesar couldn't defend Balbus in person, so his partners had to do it. Both Pompey and Crassus defended Balbus, as did Cicero. Obviously, they won the case. A quote from Cicero's speech:
"Caesar knew him when a young man; he, that most able man, thought highly of him, and though he had a most excessive multitude of friends, Balbus was accounted by him one of his most intimate friends of all. In his praetorship and in his consulship he appointed him prefect of the engineers; he thought highly of his prudence, he loved him for his integrity, he was grateful to him for his constant assistance and attention. He was at different times the partner of very many of his labours; he is perhaps even now the partaker of some of his benefits. . . But since Caius Caesar is a great distance off, and is now in those places which, if we regard their situation, are the boundaries of the world, or, if we regard his exploits, of the Roman empire, do not, I entreat you, in the name of the immortal gods, O judges, do not allow such bitter news to be taken to him, as that his own prefect of engineers, the man of all others most dear to and most intimate with him, is crushed by your decision, not on account of any offence of his own, but because of his intimacy with him."
Episode 17 is coming...
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