"Life of Caesar" Podcast: Episode 8

A quick note... I skipped over the Bona Dea discussion. I'm not an expert on Roman religion and I have no desire to do research just for this. Apologies! Cam has taken his info from wikipedia. From what little I know, it seems fairly accurate, but don't quote me on that. :)

One more thing... 61 BC is the first explicit mention of Cornelius Balbus on Caesar's staff in our sources. They probably met during Caesar's quaestorship in Spain in 69 BC. Balbus was one of Caesar's closest friends, his key agent, and his right-hand man. Cam and Ray haven't mentioned him yet.

Episode 8:

• 09:04 – Cam: "Servilia Caeponis."

Servilia didn't have a cognomen.

• 13:41 – Ray: "The one who had the highest rank, Lentulus, he was a praetor, he was personally led into the Tullianum by Cicero. I guess that's supposed to be a big honor. I don't know, he still got some big, massive arms, hands wrapped around his neck and squeeze until he was dead. But hey, if that's an honor to them, then so be it. I just thought that was very strange that was considered an honor to be led to your death by Cicero personally."

a) It's not an honor per se, but rather a respect for the rank. In a society that places so much value on these magistracies, it makes sense that an ex-praetor (Lentulus had to lay down his praetorship after the arrest) should be led by his senior (consul), while other conspirators would be led by praetors.

b) They were strangled with a noose.

• 15:11 – Cam: "Do you feel negatively towards Cicero as a result of this?"
Ray: "Well, first of all, he gets cast in a bad light, 'cause it's compared to Caesar and his clemency. But yeah, I mean... If you would let them go, if they had let them go, they would've went right back to Catiline and the men, and there would've been five more people to fight, so... He did the right thing, but he certainly not gonna be loved for it by some segments of the society."

It's almost as if... Caesar had addressed this very thing: "Do I then recommend that the prisoners be allowed to depart and swell Catiline's force? By no means! This, rather, is my advice: that their goods be confiscated and that they themselves be kept imprisoned in the strongest of the free towns."

It's not really an example of Caesar's clemency. It's more of an example of his level-headedness.

• 18:49 – Ray: "Whatever the word for 'shit' is in Latin, which I think is 'kaka.'"

It's merda, stercus, fimum.

• 19:51 – Cam: "We know that Cicero and Pompey weren't exactly best mates."

Cicero greatly admired Pompey in many ways. Even when he was upset with him (the First Triumvirate) or even mad at him (the Civil War), he always had a soft spot for him.

• 20:15 – Ray on Mucia: "What people may or may not have known was that she was having affairs while Pompey was away. And one of the people she was having an affair with was the man about town, Caesar."

I'm not saying it's impossible. However... The list of Caesar's lovers (that includes the wives of Pompey and Crassus) reported by Suetonius was most likely published in 59 BC, at the height of the smear campaign against the triumvirs (some of it with a hope to drive a wedge between them): Caesar was denounced as a slut who not only bottomed for Nicomedes but was banging the wives of his close associates. So... Did he do the do with Mucia? Maybe, but I'm very skeptical about it.

"It has not been overlooked that this list of cuckolded men includes Caesar's closest political associates. Which means that we must remain skeptical (these specifics are likely to derive from his enemies' abuse)." – W. Jeffrey Tatum

• 24:46 – Ray on Caesar as praetor: "Very strangely, though, on his very first day he decides to do something that, I think, probably struck people as odd. He decides to go after Catulus. . . . But I just thought it was interesting that he went after Catulus. Catulus wasn't a threat to him, Catulus had already been beaten by him, because Caesar was Pontifex Maximus, but he chose to go after him anyway over a very old and strange incident that happened, what, like 10 or 15 years ago." 

I don't think Ray is fully aware of who Catulus is if he finds this strange.

a) "Catulus wasn't a threat to him"

No, he just tried his damndest to implicate Caesar in the conspiracy. But it's not a big deal! It's not like the conspirators were being executed or something. /s

b) "a very old and strange incident"

16 years ago, Catulus was given the task of rebuilding the Temple of Jupiter. 16 years have passed, but the temple still isn't finished. Simple.

• 28:40 – Ray: "His [Catulus] bully-boys show up with clubs and sticks and they chase Caesar off. [...]"
Cam: "Bully-boys. Is that what you called them? Bully-boys?"
Ray: "Yeah. There is a phrase I got from somewhere. I know it sounds bad, I apologize, but I got it from some obscure text."

Ray got it from Colleen McCullough. "Caesar's Women," to be more precise.

• 29:43 – Cam: "So Caesar loses the case, but Caesar was used to losing cases."

This wasn't a court case. It was a contio.

• 30:42 – Cam on the burning of the Temple of Jupiter in 83 BC: "Also lost in the fire were 'The Sibylline Books,' which was said to have been written by the sibyls. . . . So they had all these books of the oracles, they all got burned down. Tragic."
Ray: "Just like when the Library of Alexandria gets burned down when Caesar is in..." 

a) According to the legend, they were written by a Cumaean Sibyl.

b) The books were fairly quickly reconstructed from other Sibylline books in existence. The material was gathered from Samos, Ilion, Erythrae, Africa, Sicily, and various Greek colonies in Italy. Later, Augustus moved them into the Temple of Apollo on the Palatine. The books were burned in AD 408 on the orders of Flavius Stilicho.

c) The Library of Alexandria did not burn down during Caesar's time in Egypt. Some part of the library probably caught fire, and it's a damn shame. But we don't know the extent of the damage or whether they were able to restore what was burned. But we do know that the Library of Alexandria stood for centuries after that.

• 35:01 – Ray: "So if they can't punish Nepos, they turn to man number 2 and that's Caesar, so there is... I don't know if it was actually voted on, but there was this intention to strip Caesar of his praetorship. And so he tries to bluff it off for a while and it's not working. So he decides to run his own bluff. He dismisses his lictors, takes off the toga pretexta, he walks home, he says, 'I'm retiring. I'm quitting. That's it. If you don't want me, fine.' And he walks home as a plain privatus, a citizen. . . And he drummed up a lot of sympathy from the people, who were outside his door the next day, saying, 'No, don't do this. We'll help you.' And there is this large crowd and Caesar keeps them calm, he calms them down, he says, 'No, let's not do anything through violence.' And he sends them all home calm. And the Senate sees or believes that he's sincere in this and so they don't strip him of his praetorship."

a) It wasn't exactly that. The Senate couldn't strip him of his praetorship. But they could give consuls the power to prevent him from exercising his functions. Technically, he was still praetor (and continued to show up for the job), but he just wouldn't be able to do anything. He retired to his house once he heard that they were going to use armed force against him.

b) He didn't say that he was quitting. That would've been stupid, 'cause there would be no way back. But he just made it clear that he will not exercise his functions for the rest of the year.

c) The Senate thanked him for calming down the crowd and revoked their decision. Everyone (both the Senate and Caesar) just made their points clear, and there was no need to escalate the situation, so both sides conceded.

• 38:45 – Cam on Catiline's death: "But according to the sources, was kind of respected for what he did. People were like, 'Ok, we don't agree with him, but he stuck to his values and he died doing what he believed was the right thing.' [...]"
Ray: "That's one of the things I do not like about the Roman– the history at this point, of the culture if you will. I mean, to say that 'Well, you know, he was going to invade with an army and all the top people of the Senate, he had a list, they're all going to be killed and maybe their families as well. But, you know, he had a cause and he stuck to it and he just happened to die. But other than that we admire you.' I mean the guy was a terrorist, he was an extremist. That's just my take on it. You don't admire someone who's willing to butcher a whole bunch of innocent people just because he didn't get his way and he's massively in debt and has no way to pay it back. That's just one of things about– one of the few things about Roman culture that just kind of rubs me the wrong way."

a) Catiline wasn't admired for this. They just acknowledged that he fought bravely, that's all.

"But Catiline was found far in advance of his men amid a heap of slain foemen, still breathing slightly, and showing in his face the indomitable spirit which had animated him when alive." – Sallust

b) It's very hard to know who Catiline really was. The only surviving accounts of his character are deeply hostile to him. Cicero absolutely annihilated Catiline in his speeches. Can you imagine what your opinion of Caesar would be like if you only listened to his enemies?

c) In the last episode, I didn't argue against a more established view of Catiline's affair, but it's not as clear-cut as that, actually.

Cicero's smear campaign against Catiline (that lasted for a year and a half) greatly affected his chances in the elections. He lost them, but even then, there was still hope for him. Sulpicius Rufus and Cato prosecuted Murena (consul elect) for electoral bribery. If he had been found guilty, Catiline could get his spot. But Cicero defended Murena and never ceased his attacks on Catiline, which culminated in "The First Catilinarian Oration."

There is actually no hard evidence that Manlius was gathering an army on Catiline's orders. Nor is there any hard evidence that Lentulus and co. were closely involved with Catiline. It's all based on Cicero's words. It's very much possible that Catiline decided to join Manlius' army only after Cicero destroyed him in his speech.

Nor do we know what Catiline's conduct would've been in case of victory. Cicero claimed that there would be a bloodbath to rival Sulla's. But he said the same thing about Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon, and he was utterly wrong. I'm not saying that Catiline would've been as restrained as Caesar. But if he were smart, he would try to behave. Why give Pompey a chance to play a hero?

d) "Iusta Catilinae" by Robin Seager is worth reading. I'll post a few quotes from it.

On Manlius:

"[Manlius] volunteered to surrender if the grievances of his followers were redressed. It is surely incredible that the second-in-command of a carefully organised military coup would offer to lay down his arms before his commander had even taken the field. But if Manlius was the independent leader of a peasants' revolt, then everything falls into place. He and his supporters had backed Catilina at the elections in the hope that as consul he would try to improve their situation. His failure destroyed their last chance of legal redress, and so in desperation they rebelled. But they were at pains to make it clear why they had taken this course, and it is plain that, if the senate had shown any sincere inclination to right their wrongs, Manlius would have been happy to surrender at once, regardless of any supposed designs of Catilina's."

On Lentulus and co.:

"The evidence for joint activity by Catilina on the one hand and Lentulus, Cassius, Cethegus and the rest on the other before Catilina's departure from Rome is tenuous in the extreme. It is as plausible, if not more so, to assume that, just as the rising of Manlius was a spontaneous manifestation to which Catilina attached himself, so too Lentulus and his friends constituted another at first independent nucleus of unrest and then tried in their turn to profit by and strengthen what had become the joint revolt of Manlius and Catilina."

On Catiline:

"It was probably only at Arretium that Catilina at last made up his mind. The senate too had not been sure; it was only when he committed himself that he and Manlius were declared hostes. His choice needs little explanation. His dignitas had been intolerably impaired, and meditation on how best to preserve the remnants of it must have convinced him that rebellion, however hopeless, was a more honourable way out than exile."

• 48:54 – Cam: "Caesar's wife at the time, Pompeia, not related to Pompey as we mentioned in the previous episode, she's having an affair with this guy Clodius. . . . He was a politician and one of Caesar’s allies."

Clodius wasn't Caesar's ally at this time. He will become one (kind of) later.

• 49:38 – Cam: "But Clodius makes the mistake of sneaking into the Bona Dea festival at Caesar's house. And to do so dresses up as a woman."
Ray: "Which was supposedly very good costume. But then someone speaks to him and he speaks back and he just can't pull off the feminine voice."

Ok, so...

Cam and Ray mentioned that the Bona Dea celebrations were held at the house of one of the senior magistrates. And that Caesar's house was chosen for 62 BC. And it's true.

But that was the official state celebration, where the Vestal Virgins offered sacrifice pro populo. Smaller private celebrations were held in many households in Rome, and it's very possible that the rules weren't as strict there and men dressed in women's clothes were allowed to attend.

So Clodius dressed as a woman not in the hopes of deceiving the attendees at Caesar's house, but simply to bypass restrictions, as was done in some other households. What he didn't take into account is that the Vestals were offering sacrifice pro populo in Caesar's house. The sacrifice was forbidden to be witnessed by men. And that's where Clodius got into trouble.

So it wasn't him simply attending the Bona Dea celebrations that was the problem. It was him attending one where the Vestal Virgins were offering sacrifice.

"In reality, it is extremely difficult for an adult male to pass himself off convincingly as a woman. Plutarch's statement that Clodius had not yet began to shave and therefore looked like a maiden in the face is an attempt to address this difficulty. As a newly elected quaestor, however, Clodius was at least thirty. . . . How could the adult Clodius possibly have hoped to have passed for a flute girl, even in dim light? The absurdity is heightened by two facts: flute girls wore transparent gowns and Clodius features were well known to the people whom he supposedly hoped to deceive.

[...] Cicero tells us that when Clodius' action was first brought up in the senate, the question of whether a sacrilege (nefas) had occurred was referred to the Vestals and pontifices. Though their answer was affirmative, the fact that they had to be consulted shows that there was room for disagreement on the matter.

It is much more likely that Clodius went to the ceremony in the mistaken belief that his presence would not offend anyone (or at least that no punitive action would be taken) than that he did so in the hope of actually passing for a flute girl.

[...] The December worship of Bona Dea was organized along a standard Roman pattern, exemplified by the Fordicidia in which the Vestals also took part: a principal ceremony on behalf of the state as a whole and a number of simultaneous private or regional ceremonies. In other words, on the night in question, many groups held revels in honor of the Bona Dea. At one such revel, the Vestal Virgins were present and conducted a sacrifice pro populo. . . . An individual was only subject to punitive action when he disturbed sacra publica and thus endangered the good will of the gods towards to the community. . . . If Clodius had arrived later, after the Virgins' sacrifice, or if he had gone to the Bona Dea's revel at a different household shrine, his action would have been a matter of personal taste and conscience.

It is difficult to believe that Clodius deliberately incurred resentment and ridicule that followed upon his appearance at the ceremony. It is possible that he was guilty of faux pos born of ignorance or miscommunication. He may not have known that the revel at Caesar's house was the one selected for the Vestals' sacrifice, or he may simply have arrived too early.

Some such factors probably combined to transform a minor error in judgment into a major scandal. . . . When the word of the contretemps reached Clodius' enemies, of whom he had more than a few, they capitalized on it, with well-known consequences." – David Mulroy

• 50:58 – Ray: "I read one reference where Pompeia was described as 'more breasts than brains.'"

It's certainly not in the sources. And it's not McCullough, for a change. The line is terrible. I don't even want to know where it comes from.

• 51:25 – Cam: "And Caesar interestingly tries to keep himself at arm's length from this as much as possible."

Last year, the Catilinarian affair was intense as hell. This year, his enemies nearly used armed force against him, and he had to fend off further accusations. He's been minding his own business for the rest of the year when, suddenly, this thing blows up in his face. He gets dragged into it because he is the Pontifex Maximus and a sacrilege was committed in his house. I'm pretty sure that all he wants is to get away from Rome and into his province. He has to get the momentum back because the last two years have made him vulnerable to attacks.

• 52:31 – Cam: "And interestingly though, you know, this whole process, he doesn't really get involved with Clodius, doesn't accuse her of having an affair with Clodius, but famously says... Leaving that for you."
Ray: "First of all, the people say, 'Why did you divorce your wife if you don't think she was having an affair with Clodius?' Now, I've read two different things, but basically he says, 'Caesar's wife must be above suspicion'. . . Another thing I've read was 'Caesar's wife, like all his women, must be above suspicion.' So he was just making it clear that just the hint, just the idea of a possibility... 'Now, I'm gonna bang Servilia, but shame on her.'"

The second (fake) quote is so damn trashy.

a) The original story goes like this:

"When summoned as a witness against Publius Clodius, the paramour of his wife Pompeia, charged on the same count with sacrilege, Caesar declared that he had no evidence . . . and on being asked why it was then that he had put away his wife, he replied: 'Because I maintain that the members of my family should be free from suspicion, as well as from accusation.'" – Suetonius

"...when he was called as witness he said that he had no knowledge that any of the charges were true. That seemed paradoxical. 'In that case, why did you divorce your wife?' the prosecutor asked. 'Because I thought my wife should be beyond suspicion,' Caesar replied." – Plutarch

b) "just the hint, just the idea of a possibility" 

Does anybody honestly think that Caesar cared that Pompeia had a sidepiece? I'm pretty sure he was willing to ignore it as long as it didn't affect his reputation. If someone said, "Hey, Crassus is having an affair with Caesar's wife," I really doubt a divorce would follow. Petty gossip didn't bother him, but a major scandal was a different matter.

c) Ray pulled the second quote out of his ass. Or he's paraphrasing McCullough. It's structured exactly the same, word for word. Except in McCullough's version, it says "his family," not "his women." But whatever it is, it's fake. The last line about Servilia, too.

• 53:45 – Cam: "The decision to prosecute Clodius was made by the counsel of pontiffs. And, of course, as you pointed out again, Caesar was Pontifex Maximus at the time. He was the Pope of the pontiffs, he was the head pontiff. But he didn't want to do it. He didn't want to prosecute Clodius. And mostly we have to assume because of the political embarrassment. 'Oh my God, Caesar's wife was getting some on the side. What does that mean?' Not a good look for anybody of any era really, I guess. For either sex, I'm not saying just for men. I mean, to find out that your partner's having an affair. To get it hold through the courts, publicly, it's never gonna be a good look."
Ray: "It weakens you, absolutely. And, plus, Caesar's whole career, his life, you could say was about making friends, not making enemies."

a) "The decision to prosecute Clodius was made by the counsel of pontiffs"

No. Lucius Lentulus Crus prosecuted Clodius, and he wasn't a pontiff. The extraordinary court was established to try Clodius for sacrilege. The only thing the college of pontiffs did was confirm that sacrilege took place.

b) "because of the political embarrassment" 

The sources do not say that anyone was making fun of him, not even his enemies.

The reason he was unwilling to prosecute Clodius was because the punishment (the death penalty with the option of voluntary exile) was disproportional to the offense. There was no reason for Caesar to wish for Clodius' exile, so he washed his hands of it.

c) "it's never gonna be a good look / It weakens you, absolutely"

Does it? Had he wanted to, he could've easily used it to his advantage. Take Lucullus, for example. He volunteered to testify against Clodius and had accused him of sleeping with his wife (Clodius' full sister). This had nothing to do with the Bona Dea scandal, and yet Lucullus jumped at the opportunity. He evidently didn't think this was an embarrassment. On the contrary, it was Clodius and Clodia who were ridiculed for their alleged incest. Caesar could've done the same: presented himself as the defender of religious piety and won the public's sympathy. But he didn't.

d) "Caesar's whole career, his life, you could say was about making friends, not making enemies"

Ray forgot his claims that Caesar was constantly prosecuting well-known men that he made in episodes 4 and 7.

• 58:04 – Ray: "This is the first time that we officially know for a fact, we suspected it before, but we know officially, 'cause it's in writing. He turns to Crassus and he goes, 'Hey, buddy, would you loan me 830 talents? I owe a lot more than that, but that's enough for them to get off my back.' And Crassus does. 830 talents, a crap load. So Crassus pays them off and that's the first time that we know officially happens."

Crassus didn't loan him 830 talents. Caesar asked him to stand surety for 830 talents. There is a difference.

Episode 9