"Life of Caesar" Podcast: Episode 15
Episode 15:
• 12:30 – Cam: "I don't know if in Caesar's day 43 was considered young or old in the Roman spectrum. Like, we often hear that the average age back in the ancient world was sort of 40-ish."
Infant and child mortality was high in the ancient world. Adult men and women aged 18-40 had a high risk of dying in battle and in childbirth, respectively. Especially women, as childbirth mortality was very high. But if you managed to survive to your 40s, then you were most likely to make it to your 70s. For example, Cato the Elder died at 85, Marius died at about 71, Augustus died at 74.
• 13:23 – Cam: "And during winter what does he do? . . He just raises a couple more legions. What are you gonna do over your winter break? Raise 20,000 more men."
Ray: "Illegally. Illegally raise two more legions."
Cam: "Illegally, because he hasn't gotten the approval of the Senate to raise more legions. But, I mean, he's a long way away from home here. If you need more troops, 'cause your old troops are dead, what are you supposed to do? Send parchments back to Rome, saying, 'Hey, I need some more troops.' What happens if they say no or if there are delays? What do you do? Do you just sit around and twirling your thumbs while people are attacking you, assuming that can happen?"
Technically, you needed the Senate's permission. But it didn't always work that way in practice. Basically, your stance depended on which side you were on. If you're anti-Caesarian, you could say it was illegal. If you're pro-Caesarian, you could point at the precedents.
• 14:47 – Ray: "My favorite part was he used to help fund these two illegal legions, he used some of the money that the Senate had given him. So, they didn't approve it, but they're certainly paying for it."
Cam: "Right. And he didn't use his spoils of war for this?"
Ray: "Well, he's part of it. Part of the money from– what they officially called his purse as governor. I'm sure he used a lot of that money too, but the point is he probably just lamped it all together and was using it any way he saw fit, because he's the man on the scene."
a) Caesar used the spoils of war to pay for new legions. Next year, the Senate will debate if they should take it upon themselves or if he should continue to pay from the spoils of war.
b) "what they officially called"
Did they?
c) Lamping it all together sounds like a mess. I would imagine Caesar is capable of keeping his affairs in order and has plenty of people on his staff to help him with it.
• 15:20 – Cam: "And he was also promoting people throughout this period, too. He was taking centurions from the more experienced legions and promoting them giving them command of new units, letting other people come up through the ranks. And apparently had a reputation of not really caring about the backgrounds of the people that he promoted. He was ready to promote people based just on their capability or their skill, their attitude, which was fairly unusual. I think, in that day, you typically had to come from the right families or have a right amount of money to get promoted through the ranks. But Caesar was more egalitarian than that. He was like, 'I don't care that your father was a butcher, baker or candlestick-maker. You're good with a sword, you good with a shield, you’re good with a pila, you’re getting a gig.' And that obviously made him much admired and loved by his troops."
He did value one's qualities more than one's background. He did promote them and was very generous with rewards. But Cam makes it sound as if the centurions in Caesar's legions were the poorest of the poor. It was more complicated than that.
• 17:09 – Ray: "We spent the last 14 episodes basically saying Caesar from a very young age has got a plan about what he wants to do. He wants to be known as the greatest Roman ever, but he has to do more than that, he has to come up with a specific plan about how he's gonna do that. So we know that he's literally had time to think a lot of things out. And so when he gets these other legions, he moves some of the centurions over to the new legions, which creates positions like you said. Brings up other men, who really had no expectation of being promoted, of being ever considered officer material, because they didn't have the right family, bloodline, you know. But you gotta think, was this a part of his master plan, because by the time Caesar is done . . . over the next 8 or 9 years, practically every officer that's with him is gonna owe their position to him personally. And that along with a lot of other things is what makes it Caesar's army and not Rome's army. So, again, was it thought out, did it just kind of happened, but it's a brilliant move and it's gonna pay huge dividends for him later on."
Cam: "Yeah. I mean I have to think that this is part of Caesar's master plan is to make sure that he has the necessary military support for his future endeavors. He was old enough and wise enough certainly at this stage to know what happens to governors when their term expires and to be thinking about what he’s gonna have to do to survive through that period."
a) "Caesar from a very young age has got a plan about what he wants to do. He wants to be known as the greatest Roman ever."
Colleen McCullough's novels are not history. Please, stop conflating them!
Of course, Caesar was ambitious and determined. Of course, he wanted to achieve great things. But it's ridiculous to say that he had some master plan since his earliest years. For one, a civil war fell on his teenage years. He had bigger problems to deal with than concocting a master plan of world domination.
b) "Brings up other men, who really had no expectation of being promoted, of ever being considered officer material, because they didn't have the right family, bloodline, you know."
As explained above, Cam and Ray misunderstand who centurions were.
c) "was this a part of his master plan, because by the time Caesar is done . . . over the next 8 or 9 years, practically every officer that's with him is gonna owe their position to him personally. And that with a lot of other things as well makes it Caesar's army and not Rome's army."
I'm sure that Caesar was well aware that a loyal army behind his back would be useful in case his enemies tried to destroy him. But, again, it was more complicated than that. Building a large client base was a natural thing for a Roman senator to do. It doesn't mean that he undoubtedly intended to use them in a military way later. He probably didn't rule out the possibility if his enemies were to attack him. But I'm sure he would've preferred not to.
And it wasn't a one-way street. The patron-client relationship was supposed to be mutually beneficial. And Caesar had a reputation for being a reliable patron.
• 18:48 – Cam: "There are other interesting stories, you know, I think in Suetonius. He talks about the fact that Caesar went to the trouble of learning the names of many of his soldiers, so he could greet them by name and probably ask them about, if they had any letters from home, how's Mary, how's your dog Rufus. . . . Now, he probably had [can't make out the word] standing behind him, whispering the stuff into his ear, I'm sure. But, you know, this made his men love him."
a) Suetonius doesn't mention the "learning the names" thing. It's something that is not explicitly stated in the sources, but it's most certainly correct. When Caesar describes the battle of Sambre, he mentions calling the centurions of the 12th legion by name. At that time, he had 8 legions. Each legion had 60 centurions.
b) "Now, he probably had [can't make out the word] standing behind him, whispering the stuff into his ear, I'm sure. But, you know, this made his men love him."
Learning the names was part of public life. While in Rome, Caesar probably had someone who could whisper him the name in case he forgot it.
But the battle of Sambre was not a suitable occasion for that. He had to go into the first line to cheer his men and call the centurions by name. If someone were to whisper to him in that moment, it would've been ridiculous. So, it's safe to assume that he at least memorized the names of his centurions.
I'm not saying that Caesar could, without fail, remember the names and faces of thousands of people. But we do know that he had an excellent memory. In fact, Cicero mentions his memory a few times in his writings and cites it as one of Caesar's greatest talents, even though he hated him. There is a good possibility that, on most occasions, Caesar could rely on his memory alone.
• 20:22 – Ray: "I thought it was interesting that Caesar didn't control the daily lives of the men during their winter time in winter quarters, where some generals were known for being very strict. Caesar was like, 'Drink, don't drink. Bath, don't bath. Whatever you gonna do, but when I call you up, you are expected to perform. So, I don't care if you drink a whole bunch the night before or you didn't have anything, when I call you up and it's ready to move out, I need you to meet my expectations.' And that was something that Marius had kind of started to ease the hand of the men, especially the whip, because a lot of people were flogged in the Roman army before Marius and Caesar. But Caesar would, 'Do what you want, but it comes to time to do your duty, I need to know that I can count on you.' And so I think that kind of created, I don't know, maybe an atmosphere of self-discipline or something like that."
a) Most of the time, his legates were running the winter quarters 'cause Caesar was leaving to govern his provinces. Caesar spent two winters with his army: 54/53 and 52/51. And most of winter 51/50.
b) He was much more lenient than other commanders, but not to this extreme. It would be incredibly foolish to rely solely on self-discipline. That's not how armies work. There is a world of difference between being lenient and not supervising your soldiers at all.
According to Suetonius, Caesar "treated them with equal strictness and indulgence." They wouldn't have become one of the best armies of the ancient world without strict discipline and hard training.
• 23:36 – Cam: "He [Caesar] would go out and do what he expected his soldiers to do. He'll be right there with them in the snow, in the mud, in the cold, marching for, you know, hours and hours and hours through the day. And, you know, we know that Caesar wasn't a well guy. He had epilepsy, he was advanced in age, he was 43, he wasn't a 20 year old at this stage. You know, he supposedly had soft, white skin. You know, we talked in earlier episodes how he was a bit of a dandy. But here he is. You know, Plutarch has this great statement about this, where he says, 'Nevertheless, he did not make his feeble health an excuse for soft living, but rather his military service a cure for his feeble health, since by wearisome journeys, simple diet, continuously sleeping in the open air, and enduring hardships he fought off his trouble and kept his body strong against its attacks.' So he didn't use it as an excuse, he used it as, 'Hey, you know, if I can do this, you can do this. Let's toughen ourselves up.'"
a) Plutarch's full quote goes like this:
I think Suetonius is more correct in saying that Caesar was "sound of health, except that towards the end he was subject to sudden fainting fits. . . . He was highly skilled in arms and horsemanship, and of incredible powers of endurance."
One of the main aims of Plutarch's biography of Caesar is to create a portrait of unrelenting, single-minded ambition. As Jeffrey Beneker notes, Plutarch even went so far as to make Caesar a monk: "Plutarch's Caesar is essentially sexless, suggesting that Plutarch has purposely deemphasized the erotic aspect of Caesar's nature in order to accentuate his relentless ambition. . . . Plutarch's Caesar has no time for love." I think Plutarch does the same with Caesar's health. He takes Caesar's later problems and extends them into his earlier life to show that Caesar was so determined in his ambition that he even overcame his physical weaknesses.
J.P.V.D. Balsdon is probably right in saying:
Perhaps Caesar was like a marathon runner or something. Lean, with a great power of endurance.
b) "He had epilepsy, he was advanced in age, he was 43."
There is no evidence that he had seizures, whatever their origin, at this time. It's more likely that he started to have them later in his life, during the Civil War years.
I think the truth is somewhere in between. He wasn't a weakling who magically cured himself like Plutarch says. But he also wasn't a Hercules. He had good enough health that allowed him to endure immense stresses for years, but naturally started to take a toll on his system as he grew older.
• 24:56 – Ray: "Now, I've read this like 15 years ago and I can't remember the details. . . When Caesar was back in Rome before he became this governor, he would purposefully drink this really crappy-tasting warm drink, when he was in the middle of Rome and he had all the luxuries, he could've had anything he wanted, and he had this really sour, warm drink that he would always have with him at dinner. And at one point either family member or someone else accidently picked it up and they took a sip and they basically, you know, spit it out, 'What is this shit?' And he was basically saying that, you know, 'So when I'm out on the campaign . . . I can't get the best wines, I can't get good clean water, I can drink something that doesn't taste good and it won't bother me.' So even back then he knew he wanted to be a general and he was conditioning his body."
This story comes from Colleen McCullough's "Caesar's Women." Ray's impression of Caesar is based on a fictional novel. Or, at the very least, is heavily influenced by it. And he's been quoting from that novel during all of episode 6, so I doubt it's been 15 years since he read it.
• 28:21 – Ray: "See, what the Romans normally did was they would have a province and then they would have a treaty with any lands touching the province, so that they would have a buffer in case anybody wanted to attack. . . So what Caesar's doing, Caesar is purposefully projecting this power past his province, past the allies."
What Caesar did was considered normal as well. He wasn't the inventor of Roman imperialism; he was one of its agents.
• 29:42 – Cam: "There are more gay rumors around Caesar. . . Caesar was friendly with the father of the poet Catullus. And the son, Catullus, had written a poem attacking Caesar. He'd written a couple actually. I think one he was referring to him as some sort of gambler. But in another one he sort of suggests that Caesar's having a homosexual affair with one of his prefects called Mamurra. . . . Now, apparently no one really took this seriously despite Caesar's previous reputation as having sort of bisexual relationships."
a) Catullus hated many powerful men, including Caesar and Pompey. But even more than that, he hated Mamurra (the source of the hate is unknown). Mamurra had an extremely dubious reputation as a wild partying type. He served in Caesar's army in Gaul (it's not clear, but there is a possibility that Mamurra had a talent for engineering) and Catullus hated how Mamurra enriched himself.
b) Caesar didn't have a "previous reputation for sort of bisexual relationships." Only two stories are attached to his name, and both were political slanders. The first one is King Nicomedes (who was very elderly by the time Caesar met him). The first recorded allegations were made by Dolabella, whom young Caesar had prosecuted in his very first court appearance. The second one is Catullus' poem.
• 31:28 – Ray: "I thought it was interesting that not only did he sleep with women, the aristocratic families, in the two provinces. If there was a woman that caught his eye as far as the tribes, as long as she was in a powerful position, there was a good chance he was gonna make a move on her, because they tended to be better educated. 'Cause he liked lovely, intelligent, witty conversation and you normally have to go with someone, whose been brought up properly, who has education, who can do that. So, he certainly was sleeping around during his time as governor up there."
Cam: "And in fact there was some illegitimate off-spring or claims later on. There were guys running around saying Caesar was their dad. And I mean, you know, in the era of the empire with Augustus on the throne, I'd try pass myself off as family as well. . . I mean obviously who knows if those claims were true. I guess they hadn't quite perfected the DNA testing back then, but it's probably reasonable that he did have a lot of illegitimate children running around the area."
a) Ray's speech is taken entirely from Goldsworthy. We are not actually privy to Caesar's intimate life in such detail. I mean, we know that he slept around and that he did so with women of higher social status. But we don't know his reasons.
Goldsworthy argues that if Caesar had only been interested in sex, then he could've easily slept with slaves or courtesans. For example, Cato the Elder slept with a slave girl, Pompey and Antony slept with courtesans. But we never hear this about Caesar. Goldsworthy suggests that the reason Caesar slept primarily with aristocratic women was because he valued their conversations as much as sex. It's a reasonable assumption. But I think his self-esteem played a part as well. He probably found it more appealing to win over a woman who has the option to turn him down.
b) There were no multiple guys claiming that Caesar was their dad. There was only one guy in AD 70 who claimed to be Caesar's descendant. He was a Lingonian.
c) It wouldn't be a good idea to claim that Caesar was your father while Augustus was in power. And that guy, Sabinus, lived long after Augustus, who died in AD 14.
d) It's by no means certain that he had a bunch of illegitimate kids. Some historians don't rule out the possibility that Caesar became sterile quite early on (Julia's paternity is never doubted). I don't rule it out myself. Though I tend to think that he could procreate, but wasn't particularly fertile. I'm also of the opinion that Caesarion wasn't his son.
• 33:17 – Ray: "But the Belgians had come some way when it comes to politics. They had very few kings, they were mostly run by counsels. And so when the Belgians decide to form an army to get ready for Caesar, they don't just give it to someone who is a king, who's got the right father or grandfather, they actually pick a man named Galba, who was known for his ability to lead men in war."
Galba was the King of the Suessiones! He was given the supreme command "on account of his integrity and prudence" (Caesar).
• 34:05 – Cam on the Nervii: "Caesar actually kind of respected them a bit, because they didn't drink wine and wouldn't allow wine into their region. Caesar was abstemious. Caesar didn't drink of the wine. . . . I've got a quote . . . this is from James Anthony Froude's book, 'Caesar, A Sketch.' He says, 'The Nervii, the fiercest of them, as the abstemious Caesar marks with approbation, were water-drinkers, and forbade wine to be brought among them, as injurious to their sinews and their courage.'"
a) Froude is exaggerating. Caesar says nothing about his personal stance on wine in his writings. He simply notes that the Ambiani told him that the Nervii "allowed no wine nor any of the other appurtenances of luxury to be imported, because they supposed that their spirit was like to be enfeebled and their courage relaxed thereby." He's not saying that he shares this view.
b) Caesar did drink wine sometimes, but very little.
• 35:26 – Ray: "There was a famous saying and I'm sure everybody knows it in some form or another that pretty much epitomizes what Caesar was trying to do during that winter of 58/57. And this expression or this saying was also used to describe Tiberius, the man who was Caligula's uncle, who will one day become emperor, and he'll spent his last years doing a whole bunch of depraved things to innocent Roman civilians. But when he was younger, he was considered a very good, one of the best generals and it was said that 'his drills were like bloodless battles and his battles were like bloody drills.'"
This saying has nothing to do with Tiberius. It comes from Flavius Josephus' "The Jewish War." It's the account of the First Jewish-Roman War, which went from AD 66 to AD 73. Tiberius ruled from AD 14 to AD 37, so he was long dead by that point.
• 44:37 – Ray: "So Caesar and his men, of course, they do the normal speed marching, force marches, and they cross the river Aisne, which is on the border between the Remi and the other, the Belgians. So they cross over and he takes his six legions with him, except for a small force staying on the nearer side of the river to build a small fort next to the bridge. You have to have the bridge protected in case you have to retreat. So he's got his legions there on the far side of the river, he leaves a small force back and they're just waiting to see what the Belgians are gonna do. But Bibrax is about 8 miles away from where Caesar's at. And word gets back to him that they are under attack and they need help, and if Caesar's gonna keep his word, then he needs to do something. And, again, this is just so subtly brilliant, he has done his research, so Caesar takes his Numidian– he doesn't march his entire army, he's gotta protect this bridge, they're still building the fort. He sends his, like, his light troops, his slingers, his archers, that kind of thing. And he has them go to Bibrax, but they enter the town at night. And what happens the next day when the town is under attack again? The attack is not very sophisticated, it's pretty much you kind of pressure men all around the fort, you distract them, and then you have a large group of men go up to the wall, hold the shields over their heads and try to dig under the wall. . . But because Caesar found out that's how they attack, he sent his slingers and his light cavalry, his light troops, and they were able to use their stones and arrows and pretty much pick off these guys who were trying to hide under these pathetic shields. And so they lost so many men, they had to call off the attack."
a) Caesar had 8 legions. And that bridge wasn't his main concern. He chose to camp there because it put him in a strong position.
b) "he doesn't march his entire army, he's gotta protect this bridge, they're still building the fort."
The bridge had nothing to do with it. Sending his arches and slingers was enough to relieve the town. He can't just waltz up to Bibrax. His men will be too tired to fight after the march, there is no camp, and they won't have time to study the slope and the surrounding area, etc. He needs to carefully prepare for a pitched battle and take up a strong position.
c) He never said that sending them at night was some kind of brilliant trick. The attack on the town stopped when night fell. That's when the guy in charge was able to send envoys to Caesar. And Caesar sent his Numidian and Cretan archers and Balearic slingers (no cavalry!) upon receiving their report.
d) He never called their method "not very sophisticated" or their shields "pathetic." Goldsworthy calls their method "simple," while Caesar describes it without making any degrading remarks. In fact, he talks about its effectiveness.
e) "they lost so many men, they had to call off the attack."
This never happened! When Caesar sent his archers and slingers to the town, the Belgians were dissuaded from attacking at all.
f) "Crazy, drunken guys," "half-naked savages," "pathetic shields"... Is this really necessary?
• 47:19 – Cam: "And, you know, decided as a result of some of these minor skirmishes that his guys were better than their guys."
He said his guys "were not inferior," which is slightly different than saying that they were better.
• 50:14 – Ray: "So I think it's interesting that Caesar is so efficient and he's such a good general that he literally creates his own problems. . . . His position is so strong, even though the Belgians have way more men than he does, they're not going to attack. So Caesar's like, 'Uh, shit, I did it again. I'm in such a good position, there is not going to be a war.'"
He was in a strong position, but he doesn't express any regret over it. It's better for him if this huge force will disperse! That way, he will be able to go after each tribe separately and force them to surrender without a fight.
What "again"? If Ray means Cam's earlier comment that Caesar's battle formation was similar to the battle of Bibracte, then it was simply a standard Roman formation. His position in the battle of Bibracte wasn't too strong.
• 52:24 – Cam: "And, you know, Caesar's probably telling his troops, 'Look, the Belgians are scared of us. They're not willing to attack.' The Belgians leaders, Galba, etc., probably telling their troops, 'Look, Caesar's scared of us. He's not willing to attack.'"
This is Goldsworthy's assumption. We don't know if it's correct because Caesar doesn't mention anything like that.
• 52:40 – Cam: "But then news arrives that the Aedui were advancing. 'Cause Caesar sent message out to his allies, his Gallic allies, 'Come and join forces with us, because we're greatly outnumbered.' The Belgians have a counsel, chieftains get together and they say, 'Shit, what we're gonna do.' And they decide, 'You know what? Let's go home. . . We can't just stay here forever, we can't feed the people, Caesar's got back-up coming. He called for back-up. So we need to go home.'"
The Aedui weren't going to Caesar. They moved to the border of the Bellovaci. So that the Bellovaci, who were part of this Belgic army, had to go back to defend their lands.
• 56:35 – Ray: "But what I love even more is Caesar doesn't just react, he overreacts, it's not like he says, 'Ok, go get a couple of ladders.' No, he builds freaking siege equipments, he builds siege towers, ramps, mantlets."
The siege equipment was as much for intimidation as it was for its intended purposes. In this case, the Suessiones offered to surrender when they saw the siege towers. So it worked.
• 59:59 – Cam: "Although we know he didn't have any professional engineers. It was just, 'Alright, who knows how to build a siege tower?'"
I already posted this quote in one of the previous reviews, but whatever.
• 01:01:34 – Ray on the hostages exchanged between the Belgic tribes: "A lot of hostages probably died during that time."
There was no point in killing each other's hostages because no tribe was punished upon surrender. What would be the point of killing the hostages now? I would imagine they returned to their tribes because their function as hostages was no longer relevant.
• 01:04:29 – Cam: "Now, somehow, the Nervii got the message that when Caesar was marching his troops, the normal order that they did it in [describes the order]."
Some people from the newly surrendered tribes informed the Nervii. It's not surprising. Even among the tribes that are allied to Rome, there must be plenty of people who are not happy with the Roman presence in Gaul.
• 01:13:24 – Ray on the 10th legion: "They grab their swords and their shields, they don't have time for pilas."
Actually, they threw their pila at the enemy and wounded many of them.
• 01:13:56 – Ray on the 12th and 7th legions: "So it's the two legions on the right-hand side. They're the ones who are having trouble. Their centurions are dying, the officers are being killed, men are running away, men are throwing down their swords and looking for a tree to hide behind."
Now, that's an exaggeration about them running away.
• 01:14:08 – Ray: "And you've gotta think, instinctively, Caesar knew, everything's fine here, it's somewhere else there is a problem. And they say that Sulla and Marius had that same battle sense."
a) He had to move around to check on his men because every legion was fighting separately. When he came to the right flank, he found that his 12th legion was in trouble. No need to overcomplicate things.
b) "And they say that Sulla and Marius had that same battle sense."
Ray made it up.
• 01:14:27 – Ray on Caesar going to the front line: "This is the part that impresses me for a man who is 43 years old."
43 is not 63. It's his duty to do something since the situation is so critical.
• 01:15:25 – Cam on Caesar going to the front line: "Aaaaand he's the one telling us this story. That's the interesting thing with the "Commentaries," because it is so disarmingly and endearingly honest about his mistakes in places. When he says, 'Ok, but then I picked up a shield and lead the troops from the font.' Do you believe him? Does his disarming honesty in one place mean that you're more inclined to believe him in another place, whereas you might have called bullshit before. . . . And we should point out that this was very unusual. Unusual definitely now. I can't imagine commander-in-chief of US army being on the front lines."
a) If this was bullshit, his enemies in Rome would've roasted his ass! They kept a close eye on him.
b) The only thing Caesar says is that "he went forward into the first line, and, calling on the centurions by name, and cheering on the rank and file, he bade them advance and extend the companies, that they might ply swords more easily." That's all! He never said that he was performing heroics.
c) This was not very unusual! The situation was dire, and the least he could do was show his men that he was with them. Especially because it was his tactical mistake that led to this.
This is what Roman generals were supposed to do! Caesar's action is personally brave, but it's not extraordinary under the circumstances. It won't make the Roman audience go, "OMG, I can't believe he did that!"
• 01:17:57 – Cam: "You know who did not like this story? Pompey. Pompey allegedly had got out in the front of his troops a couple of times as well. People said, 'Oh, he's just like Alexander the Great.' And now his buddy is now building that same reputation."
It's not even remotely the same. Pompey led his cavalry in battle precisely because he wanted to emulate Alexander. Caesar's situation was different. For one, he's on foot. And he didn't do it for glamour, but because he was facing disaster. Besides, he was already well known for his bravery. He is the winner of the corona civica, and he won it long before he even embarked on public life.
• 01:19:50 – Ray: "That's like saying, 'My men here are awesome. They're great, they're fabulous' and you really saying, 'And I'm just that much more better.' By complimenting them, you're elevating yourself. Hell, he's thought out everything else about his life. I'm sure he really thought out what he was going to write, how he was going to portray it."
a) "By complimenting them, you're elevating yourself."
So how was he supposed to write about it? Not compliment them, even though they deserve it?! They did pull off a great victory from the clutches of disaster. Is it so goddamn unbelievable that he could be genuinely grateful for what they did? They just survived the most dangerous situation they've been in. In many ways, this is the first time they seriously tested their bond. The first time they really displayed loyalty to each other and how much they can achieve if they stick together.
Episode 15:• 12:30 – Cam: "I don't know if in Caesar's day 43 was considered young or old in the Roman spectrum. Like, we often hear that the average age back in the ancient world was sort of 40-ish."
Infant and child mortality was high in the ancient world. Adult men and women aged 18-40 had a high risk of dying in battle and in childbirth, respectively. Especially women, as childbirth mortality was very high. But if you managed to survive to your 40s, then you were most likely to make it to your 70s. For example, Cato the Elder died at 85, Marius died at about 71, Augustus died at 74.
"Caesar was forty-one when he set out from Rome for his province. . . . Neither by Roman nor modern standards could Caesar have been considered elderly in 58 BC, but neither would it have been obvious to any of his contemporaries that he was about to prove himself as one of the greatest commanders of all time." – Adrian Goldsworthy
• 13:23 – Cam: "And during winter what does he do? . . He just raises a couple more legions. What are you gonna do over your winter break? Raise 20,000 more men."
Ray: "Illegally. Illegally raise two more legions."
Cam: "Illegally, because he hasn't gotten the approval of the Senate to raise more legions. But, I mean, he's a long way away from home here. If you need more troops, 'cause your old troops are dead, what are you supposed to do? Send parchments back to Rome, saying, 'Hey, I need some more troops.' What happens if they say no or if there are delays? What do you do? Do you just sit around and twirling your thumbs while people are attacking you, assuming that can happen?"
Technically, you needed the Senate's permission. But it didn't always work that way in practice. Basically, your stance depended on which side you were on. If you're anti-Caesarian, you could say it was illegal. If you're pro-Caesarian, you could point at the precedents.
"Rome did not have a written constitution, but a patchwork of legislation, precedent and tradition." – Adrian Goldsworthy
• 14:47 – Ray: "My favorite part was he used to help fund these two illegal legions, he used some of the money that the Senate had given him. So, they didn't approve it, but they're certainly paying for it."
Cam: "Right. And he didn't use his spoils of war for this?"
Ray: "Well, he's part of it. Part of the money from– what they officially called his purse as governor. I'm sure he used a lot of that money too, but the point is he probably just lamped it all together and was using it any way he saw fit, because he's the man on the scene."
a) Caesar used the spoils of war to pay for new legions. Next year, the Senate will debate if they should take it upon themselves or if he should continue to pay from the spoils of war.
b) "what they officially called"
Did they?
c) Lamping it all together sounds like a mess. I would imagine Caesar is capable of keeping his affairs in order and has plenty of people on his staff to help him with it.
• 15:20 – Cam: "And he was also promoting people throughout this period, too. He was taking centurions from the more experienced legions and promoting them giving them command of new units, letting other people come up through the ranks. And apparently had a reputation of not really caring about the backgrounds of the people that he promoted. He was ready to promote people based just on their capability or their skill, their attitude, which was fairly unusual. I think, in that day, you typically had to come from the right families or have a right amount of money to get promoted through the ranks. But Caesar was more egalitarian than that. He was like, 'I don't care that your father was a butcher, baker or candlestick-maker. You're good with a sword, you good with a shield, you’re good with a pila, you’re getting a gig.' And that obviously made him much admired and loved by his troops."
He did value one's qualities more than one's background. He did promote them and was very generous with rewards. But Cam makes it sound as if the centurions in Caesar's legions were the poorest of the poor. It was more complicated than that.
"Centurions have sometimes been portrayed as 'sergeant-major' types, grizzled veterans promoted only after long service in the ranks, but there is actually very little evidence to support this view. Never in the entire Commentaries does Caesar mention promoting an ordinary legionary into the centurionate, but then he says nothing at all about their origins, presumably because he assumed that his audience would know this. Many men may have been directly commissioned as centurions, something that we know was common under Rome's emperors, when we even hear of equestrians serving in this way. The administrative role that was an important part of the job evidently required a good standard of literacy and numeracy, neither of which may have been common amongst the ordinary soldiers. Once in the rank it is certain that centurions were socially and economically very distant from the ordinary legionaries, for their pay was several – perhaps as much as ten – times greater. Probably most centurions already came from the more prosperous classes and not the very poor who formed the bulk of the rank and file. If so, then the prominence they receive in the Commentaries becomes all the more interesting. It may well be that they were drawn from amongst the First Class, which played such a decisive part in the voting in the Comitia Centuriata. Appointments to this grade, and subsequent promotions, would then have taken on an importance beyond the purely military for a commander like Caesar, fitting in with the wider networks of patronage that underlay so much of Roman society." – Adrian Goldsworthy
• 17:09 – Ray: "We spent the last 14 episodes basically saying Caesar from a very young age has got a plan about what he wants to do. He wants to be known as the greatest Roman ever, but he has to do more than that, he has to come up with a specific plan about how he's gonna do that. So we know that he's literally had time to think a lot of things out. And so when he gets these other legions, he moves some of the centurions over to the new legions, which creates positions like you said. Brings up other men, who really had no expectation of being promoted, of being ever considered officer material, because they didn't have the right family, bloodline, you know. But you gotta think, was this a part of his master plan, because by the time Caesar is done . . . over the next 8 or 9 years, practically every officer that's with him is gonna owe their position to him personally. And that along with a lot of other things is what makes it Caesar's army and not Rome's army. So, again, was it thought out, did it just kind of happened, but it's a brilliant move and it's gonna pay huge dividends for him later on."
Cam: "Yeah. I mean I have to think that this is part of Caesar's master plan is to make sure that he has the necessary military support for his future endeavors. He was old enough and wise enough certainly at this stage to know what happens to governors when their term expires and to be thinking about what he’s gonna have to do to survive through that period."
a) "Caesar from a very young age has got a plan about what he wants to do. He wants to be known as the greatest Roman ever."
Colleen McCullough's novels are not history. Please, stop conflating them!
Of course, Caesar was ambitious and determined. Of course, he wanted to achieve great things. But it's ridiculous to say that he had some master plan since his earliest years. For one, a civil war fell on his teenage years. He had bigger problems to deal with than concocting a master plan of world domination.
"As a young noble, Caesar's career was governed by a number of imperatives. It was his duty to attempt to surpass the achievements of his ancestors, forge a distinguished public career, display bravery and leadership in war, and ultimately gain gloria ('military glory') and the vote of a triumph from the senate. Yet each of these steps was obviously a challenge of huge proportions. Although nobles were meant to strive for pre-eminence, with the consulship as a kind of golden prize, any thoughts about a consulship on the young Caesar's part would hardly have been realistic, since his family had not recently held the office. He was by no means a novus homo ('new man') in the eyes of the Roman people, but his early career and training as a noble tend to imply that he was operating under several disadvantages. These make it unlikely that he was thinking much beyond the next difficult stage in any serious way." – Tom Stevenson
b) "Brings up other men, who really had no expectation of being promoted, of ever being considered officer material, because they didn't have the right family, bloodline, you know."
As explained above, Cam and Ray misunderstand who centurions were.
c) "was this a part of his master plan, because by the time Caesar is done . . . over the next 8 or 9 years, practically every officer that's with him is gonna owe their position to him personally. And that with a lot of other things as well makes it Caesar's army and not Rome's army."
I'm sure that Caesar was well aware that a loyal army behind his back would be useful in case his enemies tried to destroy him. But, again, it was more complicated than that. Building a large client base was a natural thing for a Roman senator to do. It doesn't mean that he undoubtedly intended to use them in a military way later. He probably didn't rule out the possibility if his enemies were to attack him. But I'm sure he would've preferred not to.
And it wasn't a one-way street. The patron-client relationship was supposed to be mutually beneficial. And Caesar had a reputation for being a reliable patron.
"Informal ties of favour and obligation bound Roman society together in a system known as patronage. The patron was the man with wealth, influence and power, to whom the less well off (or clients) came to ask for help, which might take the form of securing a position, winning a contract, assistance in business or legal disputes, or even at its most basic level gifts of food. In return the client had duties to assist his patron in various ways. . . The number of clients a man had added to his prestige, especially if they were distinguished or exotic. Senators might well include entire communities, including towns or cities in Italy and the provinces, amongst their clients. . . A great part of a senator's time was spent in seeing his clients, in doing enough for them to ensure their continued attachment, while in turn ensuring that they provided him with the support he wanted." – Adrian Goldsworthy
• 18:48 – Cam: "There are other interesting stories, you know, I think in Suetonius. He talks about the fact that Caesar went to the trouble of learning the names of many of his soldiers, so he could greet them by name and probably ask them about, if they had any letters from home, how's Mary, how's your dog Rufus. . . . Now, he probably had [can't make out the word] standing behind him, whispering the stuff into his ear, I'm sure. But, you know, this made his men love him."
a) Suetonius doesn't mention the "learning the names" thing. It's something that is not explicitly stated in the sources, but it's most certainly correct. When Caesar describes the battle of Sambre, he mentions calling the centurions of the 12th legion by name. At that time, he had 8 legions. Each legion had 60 centurions.
b) "Now, he probably had [can't make out the word] standing behind him, whispering the stuff into his ear, I'm sure. But, you know, this made his men love him."
Learning the names was part of public life. While in Rome, Caesar probably had someone who could whisper him the name in case he forgot it.
"As they walked through the crowded centre of the city candidates greeted their fellow citizens, especially those whose property and status made their vote most influential. A specially trained slave known as a nomenclator usually stood behind the candidate, ready to whisper the names of anyone they approached, so that his master could greet them properly. Reliance on these slaves was almost universal, but good politicians made sure that their dependence on this aid to memory was never obvious." – Adrian Goldsworthy
But the battle of Sambre was not a suitable occasion for that. He had to go into the first line to cheer his men and call the centurions by name. If someone were to whisper to him in that moment, it would've been ridiculous. So, it's safe to assume that he at least memorized the names of his centurions.
I'm not saying that Caesar could, without fail, remember the names and faces of thousands of people. But we do know that he had an excellent memory. In fact, Cicero mentions his memory a few times in his writings and cites it as one of Caesar's greatest talents, even though he hated him. There is a good possibility that, on most occasions, Caesar could rely on his memory alone.
• 20:22 – Ray: "I thought it was interesting that Caesar didn't control the daily lives of the men during their winter time in winter quarters, where some generals were known for being very strict. Caesar was like, 'Drink, don't drink. Bath, don't bath. Whatever you gonna do, but when I call you up, you are expected to perform. So, I don't care if you drink a whole bunch the night before or you didn't have anything, when I call you up and it's ready to move out, I need you to meet my expectations.' And that was something that Marius had kind of started to ease the hand of the men, especially the whip, because a lot of people were flogged in the Roman army before Marius and Caesar. But Caesar would, 'Do what you want, but it comes to time to do your duty, I need to know that I can count on you.' And so I think that kind of created, I don't know, maybe an atmosphere of self-discipline or something like that."
a) Most of the time, his legates were running the winter quarters 'cause Caesar was leaving to govern his provinces. Caesar spent two winters with his army: 54/53 and 52/51. And most of winter 51/50.
b) He was much more lenient than other commanders, but not to this extreme. It would be incredibly foolish to rely solely on self-discipline. That's not how armies work. There is a world of difference between being lenient and not supervising your soldiers at all.
According to Suetonius, Caesar "treated them with equal strictness and indulgence." They wouldn't have become one of the best armies of the ancient world without strict discipline and hard training.
• 23:36 – Cam: "He [Caesar] would go out and do what he expected his soldiers to do. He'll be right there with them in the snow, in the mud, in the cold, marching for, you know, hours and hours and hours through the day. And, you know, we know that Caesar wasn't a well guy. He had epilepsy, he was advanced in age, he was 43, he wasn't a 20 year old at this stage. You know, he supposedly had soft, white skin. You know, we talked in earlier episodes how he was a bit of a dandy. But here he is. You know, Plutarch has this great statement about this, where he says, 'Nevertheless, he did not make his feeble health an excuse for soft living, but rather his military service a cure for his feeble health, since by wearisome journeys, simple diet, continuously sleeping in the open air, and enduring hardships he fought off his trouble and kept his body strong against its attacks.' So he didn't use it as an excuse, he used it as, 'Hey, you know, if I can do this, you can do this. Let's toughen ourselves up.'"
a) Plutarch's full quote goes like this:
"Now, at his love of danger his men were not astonished, knowing his ambition; but that he should undergo toils beyond his body's apparent powers of endurance amazed them, because he was of a spare habit, had a soft and white skin, suffered from distemper in the head, and was subject to epileptic fits, a trouble which first attacked him, we are told, in Corduba. Nevertheless, he did not make his feeble health an excuse for soft living, but rather his military service a cure for his feeble health, since by wearisome journeys, simple diet, continuously sleeping in the open air, and enduring hardships, he fought off his trouble and kept his body strong against its attacks."
I think Suetonius is more correct in saying that Caesar was "sound of health, except that towards the end he was subject to sudden fainting fits. . . . He was highly skilled in arms and horsemanship, and of incredible powers of endurance."
One of the main aims of Plutarch's biography of Caesar is to create a portrait of unrelenting, single-minded ambition. As Jeffrey Beneker notes, Plutarch even went so far as to make Caesar a monk: "Plutarch's Caesar is essentially sexless, suggesting that Plutarch has purposely deemphasized the erotic aspect of Caesar's nature in order to accentuate his relentless ambition. . . . Plutarch's Caesar has no time for love." I think Plutarch does the same with Caesar's health. He takes Caesar's later problems and extends them into his earlier life to show that Caesar was so determined in his ambition that he even overcame his physical weaknesses.
J.P.V.D. Balsdon is probably right in saying:
"He had, for a Roman, a remarkably pale complexion and this, perhaps, gave a misleading impression of physical weakness. For an element in the great admiration felt for him by his troops, because he shared to the full their often gruelling hardships, was the belief that he was not strong. Yet no man could have lived the life that Caesar lived between the ages of forty and fifty-five who did not possess immense physical strength."
Perhaps Caesar was like a marathon runner or something. Lean, with a great power of endurance.
b) "He had epilepsy, he was advanced in age, he was 43."
There is no evidence that he had seizures, whatever their origin, at this time. It's more likely that he started to have them later in his life, during the Civil War years.
I think the truth is somewhere in between. He wasn't a weakling who magically cured himself like Plutarch says. But he also wasn't a Hercules. He had good enough health that allowed him to endure immense stresses for years, but naturally started to take a toll on his system as he grew older.
"The ceaseless physical and psychological strain to which he had subjected himself since his consulship had left its mark even on his strong constitution." – Matthias Gelzer
• 24:56 – Ray: "Now, I've read this like 15 years ago and I can't remember the details. . . When Caesar was back in Rome before he became this governor, he would purposefully drink this really crappy-tasting warm drink, when he was in the middle of Rome and he had all the luxuries, he could've had anything he wanted, and he had this really sour, warm drink that he would always have with him at dinner. And at one point either family member or someone else accidently picked it up and they took a sip and they basically, you know, spit it out, 'What is this shit?' And he was basically saying that, you know, 'So when I'm out on the campaign . . . I can't get the best wines, I can't get good clean water, I can drink something that doesn't taste good and it won't bother me.' So even back then he knew he wanted to be a general and he was conditioning his body."
This story comes from Colleen McCullough's "Caesar's Women." Ray's impression of Caesar is based on a fictional novel. Or, at the very least, is heavily influenced by it. And he's been quoting from that novel during all of episode 6, so I doubt it's been 15 years since he read it.
• 28:21 – Ray: "See, what the Romans normally did was they would have a province and then they would have a treaty with any lands touching the province, so that they would have a buffer in case anybody wanted to attack. . . So what Caesar's doing, Caesar is purposefully projecting this power past his province, past the allies."
What Caesar did was considered normal as well. He wasn't the inventor of Roman imperialism; he was one of its agents.
• 29:42 – Cam: "There are more gay rumors around Caesar. . . Caesar was friendly with the father of the poet Catullus. And the son, Catullus, had written a poem attacking Caesar. He'd written a couple actually. I think one he was referring to him as some sort of gambler. But in another one he sort of suggests that Caesar's having a homosexual affair with one of his prefects called Mamurra. . . . Now, apparently no one really took this seriously despite Caesar's previous reputation as having sort of bisexual relationships."
a) Catullus hated many powerful men, including Caesar and Pompey. But even more than that, he hated Mamurra (the source of the hate is unknown). Mamurra had an extremely dubious reputation as a wild partying type. He served in Caesar's army in Gaul (it's not clear, but there is a possibility that Mamurra had a talent for engineering) and Catullus hated how Mamurra enriched himself.
b) Caesar didn't have a "previous reputation for sort of bisexual relationships." Only two stories are attached to his name, and both were political slanders. The first one is King Nicomedes (who was very elderly by the time Caesar met him). The first recorded allegations were made by Dolabella, whom young Caesar had prosecuted in his very first court appearance. The second one is Catullus' poem.
• 31:28 – Ray: "I thought it was interesting that not only did he sleep with women, the aristocratic families, in the two provinces. If there was a woman that caught his eye as far as the tribes, as long as she was in a powerful position, there was a good chance he was gonna make a move on her, because they tended to be better educated. 'Cause he liked lovely, intelligent, witty conversation and you normally have to go with someone, whose been brought up properly, who has education, who can do that. So, he certainly was sleeping around during his time as governor up there."
Cam: "And in fact there was some illegitimate off-spring or claims later on. There were guys running around saying Caesar was their dad. And I mean, you know, in the era of the empire with Augustus on the throne, I'd try pass myself off as family as well. . . I mean obviously who knows if those claims were true. I guess they hadn't quite perfected the DNA testing back then, but it's probably reasonable that he did have a lot of illegitimate children running around the area."
a) Ray's speech is taken entirely from Goldsworthy. We are not actually privy to Caesar's intimate life in such detail. I mean, we know that he slept around and that he did so with women of higher social status. But we don't know his reasons.
Goldsworthy argues that if Caesar had only been interested in sex, then he could've easily slept with slaves or courtesans. For example, Cato the Elder slept with a slave girl, Pompey and Antony slept with courtesans. But we never hear this about Caesar. Goldsworthy suggests that the reason Caesar slept primarily with aristocratic women was because he valued their conversations as much as sex. It's a reasonable assumption. But I think his self-esteem played a part as well. He probably found it more appealing to win over a woman who has the option to turn him down.
b) There were no multiple guys claiming that Caesar was their dad. There was only one guy in AD 70 who claimed to be Caesar's descendant. He was a Lingonian.
"Sabinus, over and above his natural vanity, was inflamed with the pride of an imaginary descent, for he asserted that his great-grandmother had, by her personal charms, attracted the admiration of the divine Julius, when he was campaigning in Gaul." – Tacitus
c) It wouldn't be a good idea to claim that Caesar was your father while Augustus was in power. And that guy, Sabinus, lived long after Augustus, who died in AD 14.
d) It's by no means certain that he had a bunch of illegitimate kids. Some historians don't rule out the possibility that Caesar became sterile quite early on (Julia's paternity is never doubted). I don't rule it out myself. Though I tend to think that he could procreate, but wasn't particularly fertile. I'm also of the opinion that Caesarion wasn't his son.
• 33:17 – Ray: "But the Belgians had come some way when it comes to politics. They had very few kings, they were mostly run by counsels. And so when the Belgians decide to form an army to get ready for Caesar, they don't just give it to someone who is a king, who's got the right father or grandfather, they actually pick a man named Galba, who was known for his ability to lead men in war."
Galba was the King of the Suessiones! He was given the supreme command "on account of his integrity and prudence" (Caesar).
• 34:05 – Cam on the Nervii: "Caesar actually kind of respected them a bit, because they didn't drink wine and wouldn't allow wine into their region. Caesar was abstemious. Caesar didn't drink of the wine. . . . I've got a quote . . . this is from James Anthony Froude's book, 'Caesar, A Sketch.' He says, 'The Nervii, the fiercest of them, as the abstemious Caesar marks with approbation, were water-drinkers, and forbade wine to be brought among them, as injurious to their sinews and their courage.'"
a) Froude is exaggerating. Caesar says nothing about his personal stance on wine in his writings. He simply notes that the Ambiani told him that the Nervii "allowed no wine nor any of the other appurtenances of luxury to be imported, because they supposed that their spirit was like to be enfeebled and their courage relaxed thereby." He's not saying that he shares this view.
b) Caesar did drink wine sometimes, but very little.
"That he drank very little wine not even his enemies denied." – Suetonius
• 35:26 – Ray: "There was a famous saying and I'm sure everybody knows it in some form or another that pretty much epitomizes what Caesar was trying to do during that winter of 58/57. And this expression or this saying was also used to describe Tiberius, the man who was Caligula's uncle, who will one day become emperor, and he'll spent his last years doing a whole bunch of depraved things to innocent Roman civilians. But when he was younger, he was considered a very good, one of the best generals and it was said that 'his drills were like bloodless battles and his battles were like bloody drills.'"
This saying has nothing to do with Tiberius. It comes from Flavius Josephus' "The Jewish War." It's the account of the First Jewish-Roman War, which went from AD 66 to AD 73. Tiberius ruled from AD 14 to AD 37, so he was long dead by that point.
• 44:37 – Ray: "So Caesar and his men, of course, they do the normal speed marching, force marches, and they cross the river Aisne, which is on the border between the Remi and the other, the Belgians. So they cross over and he takes his six legions with him, except for a small force staying on the nearer side of the river to build a small fort next to the bridge. You have to have the bridge protected in case you have to retreat. So he's got his legions there on the far side of the river, he leaves a small force back and they're just waiting to see what the Belgians are gonna do. But Bibrax is about 8 miles away from where Caesar's at. And word gets back to him that they are under attack and they need help, and if Caesar's gonna keep his word, then he needs to do something. And, again, this is just so subtly brilliant, he has done his research, so Caesar takes his Numidian– he doesn't march his entire army, he's gotta protect this bridge, they're still building the fort. He sends his, like, his light troops, his slingers, his archers, that kind of thing. And he has them go to Bibrax, but they enter the town at night. And what happens the next day when the town is under attack again? The attack is not very sophisticated, it's pretty much you kind of pressure men all around the fort, you distract them, and then you have a large group of men go up to the wall, hold the shields over their heads and try to dig under the wall. . . But because Caesar found out that's how they attack, he sent his slingers and his light cavalry, his light troops, and they were able to use their stones and arrows and pretty much pick off these guys who were trying to hide under these pathetic shields. And so they lost so many men, they had to call off the attack."
a) Caesar had 8 legions. And that bridge wasn't his main concern. He chose to camp there because it put him in a strong position.
"...he pushed on rapidly, crossed the Aisne, which flows through the most distant part of the country of the Remi, and encamped near its banks. This movement protected one side of his camp by the banks of the river, secured his rear, and enabled his supplies to be brought up without danger by the Remi and the other tribes. The river was spanned by a bridge, at the head of which he established a strong post, while on the other side of the river he left six cohorts under one of his generals, Titurius Sabinus. At the same time he ordered a camp to be constructed, with a rampart twelve feet high and a trench eighteen feet wide." – Caesar
b) "he doesn't march his entire army, he's gotta protect this bridge, they're still building the fort."
The bridge had nothing to do with it. Sending his arches and slingers was enough to relieve the town. He can't just waltz up to Bibrax. His men will be too tired to fight after the march, there is no camp, and they won't have time to study the slope and the surrounding area, etc. He needs to carefully prepare for a pitched battle and take up a strong position.
c) He never said that sending them at night was some kind of brilliant trick. The attack on the town stopped when night fell. That's when the guy in charge was able to send envoys to Caesar. And Caesar sent his Numidian and Cretan archers and Balearic slingers (no cavalry!) upon receiving their report.
d) He never called their method "not very sophisticated" or their shields "pathetic." Goldsworthy calls their method "simple," while Caesar describes it without making any degrading remarks. In fact, he talks about its effectiveness.
e) "they lost so many men, they had to call off the attack."
This never happened! When Caesar sent his archers and slingers to the town, the Belgians were dissuaded from attacking at all.
f) "Crazy, drunken guys," "half-naked savages," "pathetic shields"... Is this really necessary?
• 47:19 – Cam: "And, you know, decided as a result of some of these minor skirmishes that his guys were better than their guys."
He said his guys "were not inferior," which is slightly different than saying that they were better.
"By cavalry combats, however, he sought daily to prove what the valour of the enemy could do and what our men could dare. Then, perceiving that our men were not inferior, he chose a ground before the camp naturally suitable and appropriate for forming line of battle." – Caesar
• 50:14 – Ray: "So I think it's interesting that Caesar is so efficient and he's such a good general that he literally creates his own problems. . . . His position is so strong, even though the Belgians have way more men than he does, they're not going to attack. So Caesar's like, 'Uh, shit, I did it again. I'm in such a good position, there is not going to be a war.'"
He was in a strong position, but he doesn't express any regret over it. It's better for him if this huge force will disperse! That way, he will be able to go after each tribe separately and force them to surrender without a fight.
What "again"? If Ray means Cam's earlier comment that Caesar's battle formation was similar to the battle of Bibracte, then it was simply a standard Roman formation. His position in the battle of Bibracte wasn't too strong.
• 52:24 – Cam: "And, you know, Caesar's probably telling his troops, 'Look, the Belgians are scared of us. They're not willing to attack.' The Belgians leaders, Galba, etc., probably telling their troops, 'Look, Caesar's scared of us. He's not willing to attack.'"
This is Goldsworthy's assumption. We don't know if it's correct because Caesar doesn't mention anything like that.
• 52:40 – Cam: "But then news arrives that the Aedui were advancing. 'Cause Caesar sent message out to his allies, his Gallic allies, 'Come and join forces with us, because we're greatly outnumbered.' The Belgians have a counsel, chieftains get together and they say, 'Shit, what we're gonna do.' And they decide, 'You know what? Let's go home. . . We can't just stay here forever, we can't feed the people, Caesar's got back-up coming. He called for back-up. So we need to go home.'"
The Aedui weren't going to Caesar. They moved to the border of the Bellovaci. So that the Bellovaci, who were part of this Belgic army, had to go back to defend their lands.
• 56:35 – Ray: "But what I love even more is Caesar doesn't just react, he overreacts, it's not like he says, 'Ok, go get a couple of ladders.' No, he builds freaking siege equipments, he builds siege towers, ramps, mantlets."
The siege equipment was as much for intimidation as it was for its intended purposes. In this case, the Suessiones offered to surrender when they saw the siege towers. So it worked.
• 59:59 – Cam: "Although we know he didn't have any professional engineers. It was just, 'Alright, who knows how to build a siege tower?'"
I already posted this quote in one of the previous reviews, but whatever.
"Every legion included in its ranks a number of skilled artisans, called fabri who have been likened to the engineers in a modern army; but they were not permanently enrolled in a separate corps. They fought in the ranks like other soldiers; but, when their special services were required, they were directed by staff-officers called praefecti fabrum. It was their duty to execute repairs of every kind, to superintend the construction of permanent camps, and to plan fortifications and bridges; and it should seem that they also had charge of the artillery." – T. Rice Holmes
• 01:01:34 – Ray on the hostages exchanged between the Belgic tribes: "A lot of hostages probably died during that time."
There was no point in killing each other's hostages because no tribe was punished upon surrender. What would be the point of killing the hostages now? I would imagine they returned to their tribes because their function as hostages was no longer relevant.
• 01:04:29 – Cam: "Now, somehow, the Nervii got the message that when Caesar was marching his troops, the normal order that they did it in [describes the order]."
Some people from the newly surrendered tribes informed the Nervii. It's not surprising. Even among the tribes that are allied to Rome, there must be plenty of people who are not happy with the Roman presence in Gaul.
• 01:13:24 – Ray on the 10th legion: "They grab their swords and their shields, they don't have time for pilas."
Actually, they threw their pila at the enemy and wounded many of them.
"The troops of the Ninth and the Tenth Legion, who had formed up on the left flank, discharged their pikes, and, as they possessed the higher ground, speedily drove the Atrebates (the section which happened to face them) into the river, breathless as they were with running and weakened with wounds." – Caesar
• 01:13:56 – Ray on the 12th and 7th legions: "So it's the two legions on the right-hand side. They're the ones who are having trouble. Their centurions are dying, the officers are being killed, men are running away, men are throwing down their swords and looking for a tree to hide behind."
Now, that's an exaggeration about them running away.
"There he beheld his troops hard driven, and the men of the Twelfth Legion, with their standards collected in one place, so closely packed that they hampered each other for fighting. All the centurions of the fourth cohort had been slain, and the standard-bearer likewise, and the standard was lost; almost all the centurions of the other cohorts were either wounded or killed, among them the chief centurion, Publius Sextius Baculus, bravest of the brave, who was overcome by many grievous wounds, so that he could no longer hold himself upright. The rest of the men were tiring, and some of the rearmost ranks, abandoning the fight, were retiring to avoid the missiles; the enemy were not ceasing to move upwards in front from the lower ground, and were pressing hard on either flank." – Caesar
• 01:14:08 – Ray: "And you've gotta think, instinctively, Caesar knew, everything's fine here, it's somewhere else there is a problem. And they say that Sulla and Marius had that same battle sense."
a) He had to move around to check on his men because every legion was fighting separately. When he came to the right flank, he found that his 12th legion was in trouble. No need to overcomplicate things.
b) "And they say that Sulla and Marius had that same battle sense."
Ray made it up.
• 01:14:27 – Ray on Caesar going to the front line: "This is the part that impresses me for a man who is 43 years old."
43 is not 63. It's his duty to do something since the situation is so critical.
• 01:15:25 – Cam on Caesar going to the front line: "Aaaaand he's the one telling us this story. That's the interesting thing with the "Commentaries," because it is so disarmingly and endearingly honest about his mistakes in places. When he says, 'Ok, but then I picked up a shield and lead the troops from the font.' Do you believe him? Does his disarming honesty in one place mean that you're more inclined to believe him in another place, whereas you might have called bullshit before. . . . And we should point out that this was very unusual. Unusual definitely now. I can't imagine commander-in-chief of US army being on the front lines."
a) If this was bullshit, his enemies in Rome would've roasted his ass! They kept a close eye on him.
b) The only thing Caesar says is that "he went forward into the first line, and, calling on the centurions by name, and cheering on the rank and file, he bade them advance and extend the companies, that they might ply swords more easily." That's all! He never said that he was performing heroics.
c) This was not very unusual! The situation was dire, and the least he could do was show his men that he was with them. Especially because it was his tactical mistake that led to this.
This is what Roman generals were supposed to do! Caesar's action is personally brave, but it's not extraordinary under the circumstances. It won't make the Roman audience go, "OMG, I can't believe he did that!"
"In part, Caesar's willingness to expose himself to danger was conventional. Roman generals were expected to display bravery and steadfast determination, especially when defeat loomed, precisely because any general's presence incited their men to do their utmost. And generals needed to be close to the action in order to control the movements of their forces as the battle progressed." – Nathan Rosenstein
• 01:17:57 – Cam: "You know who did not like this story? Pompey. Pompey allegedly had got out in the front of his troops a couple of times as well. People said, 'Oh, he's just like Alexander the Great.' And now his buddy is now building that same reputation."
It's not even remotely the same. Pompey led his cavalry in battle precisely because he wanted to emulate Alexander. Caesar's situation was different. For one, he's on foot. And he didn't do it for glamour, but because he was facing disaster. Besides, he was already well known for his bravery. He is the winner of the corona civica, and he won it long before he even embarked on public life.
• 01:19:50 – Ray: "That's like saying, 'My men here are awesome. They're great, they're fabulous' and you really saying, 'And I'm just that much more better.' By complimenting them, you're elevating yourself. Hell, he's thought out everything else about his life. I'm sure he really thought out what he was going to write, how he was going to portray it."
a) "By complimenting them, you're elevating yourself."
So how was he supposed to write about it? Not compliment them, even though they deserve it?! They did pull off a great victory from the clutches of disaster. Is it so goddamn unbelievable that he could be genuinely grateful for what they did? They just survived the most dangerous situation they've been in. In many ways, this is the first time they seriously tested their bond. The first time they really displayed loyalty to each other and how much they can achieve if they stick together.
The way Ray sees things, Caesar can't take a shit without having a nefarious motive behind it.
b) "Hell, he has thought out everything else about his life."
Well, too bad he hadn't thought out how to avoid assassination. That would've been useful.
• 01:26:57 – Cam on the Nervii loses: "We can't skip over these things. This is just brutal."
The number that Caesar gives was reported to him by the Nervii. They will be a big part of the first rebellion in 54 BC, so their losses were evidently not this high. Perhaps Caesar exaggerated them or the Nervii exaggerated them, so that he would treat them leniently. Or it's a mixture of both.
Even if the number is correct, they definitely had more than 500 fighting men left alive. The most likely explanation is that a good chunk of their fighting men stayed behind to defend their non-combatants in fortified places, so they weren't part of this army. And that's how they managed to master so many fighting men in 54 BC.
• 01:27:15 – Ray: "I would really like to know, because I couldn't find the answers to these. One, did they finish building the fort that night for protection? And two, did they just leave the bodies there? The Belgians. Or did they do a mass burial, did they burn them for sanitation reasons?"
a) Why would they need to finish the camp? Isn't it so much more exciting to sleep in the enemy territory defenseless? /s
b) Both sides most likely buried/cremated their dead.
• 01:39:57 – Ray: "And he knows exactly what he wants to do to be known as the greatest Roman ever."
To be fair, Augustus was considered no less great than Caesar. Perhaps even greater. Caesar is the most famous Roman now, but during the existence of the Roman Empire, Augustus was no less famous than him. So unless Ray thinks that Caesar could see 2000 years into the future, his claim doesn't hold here.
Episode 16
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