"Life of Caesar" Podcast: Episode 10
Immensely grateful to my friend for her support and knowledge!
I went back to episode 8 and added another point that I missed earlier. It's at 35:01.
Episode 10:
• 21:10 – Ray: "We've mentioned it a couple of times that Caesar– and you never know what's true, you never know to what decree, but Caesar through his life has made several statements that he wants to be the most famous Roman that there ever is. He doesn't just wanna be consul, senior consul, thank you very much, he doesn't wanna just be the first man in Rome like Gaius Marius, who was for defeating Jugurtha in North Africa and defeating the Germans, who were coming down and he defeated them. He wants to be more than what Sulla the dictator was, who was also the first man in Rome in his time, but in a less [can't make out the word] fun kind of way, 'cause he killed everybody. Caesar wants to be THE Roman that is remembered throughout the ages, so as important as the consulship is to him and he's focused on this his entire adult life and he's finally here, he's worked for this and he's finally got it. This still is a stepping stone to what he wants to achieve. . . And he knows exactly what he wants to do AFTER he's consul. So he's gotta think in terms of 'This is great, don't get me wrong. But there is so much more I wanna do'. . . . And so he's gotta get everything right for the next year in order for the rest of his life to pay off."
a) "Caesar through his life has made several statements that he wants to be the most famous Roman that there ever is."
He never made such statements. What exactly does this misinformation accomplish? Does Ray think it makes Caesar look badass or something? Personally, I think it makes him look like a megalomaniac. Ray laments the fact that Caesar gets all the blame for the fall of the Republic, and yet he feeds into the narrative that Caesar was some kind of overlord.
Immensely grateful to my friend for her support and knowledge!I went back to episode 8 and added another point that I missed earlier. It's at 35:01.
Episode 10:
• 21:10 – Ray: "We've mentioned it a couple of times that Caesar– and you never know what's true, you never know to what decree, but Caesar through his life has made several statements that he wants to be the most famous Roman that there ever is. He doesn't just wanna be consul, senior consul, thank you very much, he doesn't wanna just be the first man in Rome like Gaius Marius, who was for defeating Jugurtha in North Africa and defeating the Germans, who were coming down and he defeated them. He wants to be more than what Sulla the dictator was, who was also the first man in Rome in his time, but in a less [can't make out the word] fun kind of way, 'cause he killed everybody. Caesar wants to be THE Roman that is remembered throughout the ages, so as important as the consulship is to him and he's focused on this his entire adult life and he's finally here, he's worked for this and he's finally got it. This still is a stepping stone to what he wants to achieve. . . And he knows exactly what he wants to do AFTER he's consul. So he's gotta think in terms of 'This is great, don't get me wrong. But there is so much more I wanna do'. . . . And so he's gotta get everything right for the next year in order for the rest of his life to pay off."
a) "Caesar through his life has made several statements that he wants to be the most famous Roman that there ever is."
He never made such statements. What exactly does this misinformation accomplish? Does Ray think it makes Caesar look badass or something? Personally, I think it makes him look like a megalomaniac. Ray laments the fact that Caesar gets all the blame for the fall of the Republic, and yet he feeds into the narrative that Caesar was some kind of overlord.
b) "Caesar wants to be THE Roman that is remembered throughout the ages."
This relies entirely on hindsight.
• 22:39 – Ray: "So he sends a representative to Cicero. And this representative, Lucius Cornelius Balbus, says to Cicero, you know, 'I'm here on behalf of Caesar. We're gonna do the land bill that should've been done 10 years ago. And this is your chance to come on board. And if you don't, you might end up an enemy to Caesar, Pompey and Crassus.'"
Nobody was threatening Cicero! This is what he writes to Atticus:
"Cornelius paid me a visit—I mean Balbus, Caesar's great friend. He assured me that Caesar will take my own and Pompey's opinion on everything, and that he will make an effort to reconcile Pompey and Crassus. On this side of the sheet may be placed an intimate connection with Pompey and, if I like, with Caesar too, reconciliation with my enemies, peace with the populace, and ease in my old age."
• 23:19 – Ray: "So January 1 59 BCE, he [Caesar] wants to work out the details for Pompey's land bill. Now, Pompey's land bill was technically passed in 70 BCE, but the details on how to make it work were not."
It was Plotius' land bill in 70 BC. Some of the veterans of the Sertorian War received land through it. Caesar's bill is different. And it's not Pompey's. Pompey took more than enough credit for other men's work, no need to give him more.
• 25:31 – Cam: "Normally, the lictors . . . would go ahead of the magistrate. . . . As a mark of respect, Caesar . . . states at the beginning of the year whenever– 'cause, people, remember that the consuls kind of, they shared power, but they did it month on-month off. . . . Caesar said that in the months that he had "off," Caesar's own lictors would follow behind him, instead of go ahead of him. And only have like a single person go ahead of him, like a clerk. . . . What's he's trying to do here? Is he trying to make himself look humble?"
Ray: "Well, there were a couple of reasons. One, he knows Bibulus is gonna fight him to the nail for the next year. So any chance that he gets to appear humble or to appear getting along or not be personal, he is going to try to ingratiate himself to Bibulus in any way he can. The other reason, and this is very important for historians, is because he had a scribe with him writing down everything that they could write down, what people said, and so he always had that person with him, so he could keep dictating or just have everything recorded. So he was trying to get along with Bibulus, knowing that he had a lot to do this year. He was just doing his best to placate the man that he once called 'the flee.'"
a) Lictors following behind and accensus walking in front were not new. Caesar just revived the old practice.
b) He did not have a scribe following him. He issued that the meetings of the Senate and the Popular Assemblies should be recorded and published. That's all.
c) He never called Bibulus "the flee." This is Colleen McCullough.
• 28:22 – Cam: "You mentioned that Caesar had a scribe following him around that was writing down or, you know, taking dictation, but one of the first things that Caesar did when he became consul was introduce a new law that said not only his deeds and words will be written down, but everyone else's will be as well. All the speeches in the Senate, all the public meetings would be recorded by scribes and published in the Forum. In the past this had been done, but only really occasionally. And Caesar said, 'No, this is important enough that we need to keep a record of everything that's said, everything that's done.' Now, you know, I wonder if there are any, if this is coincidence that Caesar is one of the most famous, if not the most famous person, from ancient Roman history. And it also coincides, you know, his first stint as consul, a period when everything started to get recorded. I wonder if there was a bit of propaganda thing. . . . Do you think that this law was a bit of Caesar spinning up his own propaganda campaign?"
Ray: "Yeah, I think he was really good. He really had good press, because he had his own press. And though a lot of what he wrote is gone, a lot of it survived. So I think there is a correlation between all these things that are written down and him being remembered well in history. I certainly think there is a correlation there."
a) Nobody was following him, recording his every breath.
b) The only thing the clerks did was record who said what at the Senate meetings. It was the most basic transcription.
By the way, these clerks weren't even his. They were a class of employees paid by the Treasury and formally under the command of quaestors, not consuls.
c) "when everything started to get recorded"
The Romans had been writing their histories long before this. They were doing it regardless of whether or not anyone was transcribing the Senate meetings. Caesar did not invent the recording of histories. And his law concerned only the Senate meetings and the Popular Assemblies. It did not concern anything else.
d) We don't even have them! What survived throughout the ages and what didn't wasn't in Caesar's power. The majority of our material about this period comes from Cicero.
e) The aim of this measure wasn't even posterity per se. Caesar knew his agrarian reform would be opposed. His support lay in the Popular Assemblies because people really, really wanted this reform. So he found a way to thwart the opposition. Now that the senators knew that their words would be recorded and published, they were reluctant to openly oppose the bill. Because people will know they opposed it, they will know who said what.
f) Caesar will be gone the next year and won't return for nearly 10 years. It's not his words that are gonna be recorded in the Senate. He won't be there to defend himself if his opponents trash talk him, and trash talk him they will.
"This was the weakness of his position in these years, for he could not take part in the meetings of the Senate or public gatherings at Rome." – Adrian Goldsworthy
g) I can only chuckle at the suggestion that Caesar is lucky in what history thinks of him. Like... What other political figure gets blamed for the actions of every tyrant in history?
"It was Octavian, of course, who emerged victorious, and remade himself in the following decades as Augustus – the venerable one. But it was Caesar's name that became synonymous with power. . . In the end though, that tradition of seeing Caesar as synonymous with autocratic power does the real Caesar a disservice. . . . Caesar was one of the truly outsize personalities in world history, but he was just one man. We must not apportion him more credit or blame than one man is due." – Richard A. Billows
h) By no means am I saying that Caesar didn't know how to use propaganda. My objection is how over-the-top this all gets. "He wanted to be the greatest Roman ever/he invented prisons/he invented propaganda." He didn't.
• 33:15 – Ray on the First Triumvirate: "A lot of people don't know it exists yet. It was still informal. And some people said it wasn't formalized until after he either got into office or he was voted consul."
The First Triumvirate was never formal; the Second Triumvirate was. The First Triumvirate was always an informal agreement. But, I guess, it's just a poor choice of words, and what Ray means is that we don't know when exactly Pompey and Crassus said, "Ok, we have a deal." I think it happened before the elections.
• 36:57 – Ray on the land bill: "There are gonna be those elements in the Senate, who do not want to go along with it just because it's Caesar reading it out and because it's gonna have Pompey's name on it if you will."
It was Caesar's law, and it will have his family name on it. It will be called lex Julia.
• 38:02 – Cam: "Bibulus is, I think, brother-in-law [of Cato]?"
Son-in-law.
• 38:17 – Ray: "He [Caesar] takes out clauses that people don't like."
He said he would take out clauses that the senators didn't like, but nobody offered any specific objections.
• 39:31 – Ray: "In some instances he [Caesar] literally referred to himself in the third person."
McCullough again. Caesar refers to himself in the third person in the "Commentaries," but that's a literary device. In the surviving fragments of his speeches, he speaks in the first person. Likewise, in the quotes attributed to him by other sources.
• 41:52 – Ray on Cato's filibustering: "They're not able to vote and pass the bill on the second day as Caesar had planned."
The Senate didn't have legislative power. They could only give their approval or disapproval of the proposed measures. If they disapproved, a bill was more often dropped. If they approved, a bill was sent to the Popular Assemblies for people to vote.
There was no legal obligation to get the Senate's approval. But if you put a bill forward without it, the Senate will be greatly offended and will cause you all sorts of trouble. So consuls did it rarely, but tribunes did it quite often.
• 43:03 – Ray on the contio: "He [Caesar] turns to Bibulus and he says, 'So, what is your opinion of the bill?' And, again, Bibulus said what he did before. He said, 'You know, it's a very good bill, it's a very solid bill. It's just a little too much, it's a little too innovative right now. It's just not a really good year. There's bad omens in the sky or some crap, I don't know.' He doesn't think it's a good time to pass the bill."
a) We don't know if Bibulus commented on it in the Senate before.
b) According to Cassius Dio, Bibulus "gave him no answer beyond saying that he would tolerate no innovations during his year of office."
• 44:17 - Ray: "So this time, the next day, Caesar goes to the steps . . . of the Temple of Castor and Pollux, and it's time for the vote, for the Tribal Assembly to vote on this bill. . . So he has Pompey come up and speak on behalf of the bill. He has Crassus come up and speak on behalf of the bill. . . . In the middle of this Bibulus shows up and he's got Cato with him and he's got three tribunes of the plebs with them. And it looks like that they're gonna veto this, which would just kill everything right away. So, again, Bibulus turns to the crowd and he says, 'I still feel the way I do. That this is not a good time. It's a very good piece of legislation, but now is not a good time.' Which pisses off the crowd, because they've been worked up by, you could probably say, the rock star, by Pompey the Great, they've been worked up by him, they've been worked up by Caesar and they've been worked up by Crassus. And so the crowd– you never know who throws the first punch, but the crowd starts– everybody starts into a melee. . . . There is chaos all over the place, everyone's fighting. And Bibulus kind of exposes his neck and he says, 'You can cut me all you want, you can kill me, you can cut my head, whatever, I'm never gonna stop fighting against this.' And right in the middle of this, which should've been his moment, someone dumps a basket of shit all over his head. . . So, you can scream and yell all you want, but when someone dumps– trying to remember the Latin word, I think it's something like 'kaka,' something like that, all over your head, you're gonna close your mouth and quit screaming. . . . Amazingly, no one is killed. As far as we know, no one was killed during this melee. And if you think about it, how many people died when Gaius Marius lost it in the end, how many people died when Sulla was dictator with the proscriptions. Now, as far as we know, not one person died, which kind of tells you this was orchestrated, it was coordinated, Caesar was in charge and I guess he did his best to make sure no one was killed. . . . They have the vote, the vote passes overwhelmingly, it becomes law. . . And then after that Bibulus goes home and he literally stares at the sky for the rest of the freaking year, saying there's bad omens, bad omens, he writes bad stuff about Caesar and Pompey and he has it posted in the Forum, because he can do that, he's the consul. And so he's gonna literally sit home and sulk for the rest of the year. And Caesar's pretty much gonna run the government by himself for the rest of their consulship, and it's only February 1 or February 2 or whatever. I think it's like the last day of January or something like that. So it's pretty amazing what happens, but Caesar knew they were gonna fight him and he came up with a clever way of defeating them as opposed to taking out the sword and just killing everybody like Sulla would've done."
a) "So he has Pompey come up and speak on behalf of the bill. He has Crassus come up and speak on behalf of the bill. . . . In the middle of this Bibulus shows up"
Pompey and Crassus weren't speaking on voting day. They spoke at some earlier date.
b) "So, again, Bibulus turns to the crowd and he says, 'I still feel the way I do. That this is not a good time. It's a very good piece of legislation, but now is not a good time.'"
All Cassius Dio says is that Bibulus "attempted to speak in opposition to Caesar."
c) "And right in the middle of this, which should've been his moment, someone dumps a basket of shit all over his head."
Plutarch is the only source for this, and he says that it happened when Bibulus was on his way to the Forum. And that it was Pompey's veterans who did it. Apparently, it was an attempt to stall Bibulus because he intended to announce bad omens and he had to do it before the assembly started. We don't know if Caesar was even aware that they're gonna do it. Maybe Pompey just assured him that his men would stall Bibulus, without going into details on how they're gonna do it.
d) Latin words for "shit" are merda, stercus, fimum.
e) "no one was killed during this melee. And if you think about it, how many people died when Gaius Marius lost it in the end, how many people died when Sulla was dictator with the proscriptions."
Did Ray just compare a brawl to the civil war? If he really had to compare it to something, the cases of Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus would've been more appropriate. Those disorders resulted in a large number of deaths.
By the way, do Cam and Ray even remember Cinna? They always mention Marius alone.
f) "And then after that Bibulus goes home and he literally stares at the sky for the rest of the freaking year."
Not exactly. Bibulus held a Senate meeting where he probably urged the senators to pass the senatus consultum ultimum. It didn't work, and he retired to his house.
g) "And so he's gonna literally sit home and sulk for the rest of the year."
It's not so simple. Every time Caesar would do something, Bibulus would send a message, saying he saw "bad omens," which meant that all public business had to close down. And this is where it gets tricky... According to the established procedure, you had to make these announcements in person, at the Popular Assembly meeting. Written proclamations were of questionable validity, so Caesar ignored him. But the opposing side thought otherwise... The same with Bibulus' self-imposed incarceration. On the one hand, nobody forced him to sit at home. On the other hand, they could use it to paint him as a victim of his colleague's tyranny. Basically, it could all be twisted this or that way in the courts.
• 48:24 – Cam: "Interestingly, this new law also came with a clause that required every senator to take an oath to abide by the clauses and not to try and repeal it down the track. And if they did try and do that, they will get exiled. So that's one way of making your laws stick. [...]"
Ray: "Yeah, they had to. But Cato was going to filibuster again, but Cicero told him to shut up."
a) It's been done before. For example, Saturninus' land bill had a clause like that.
Despite this clause, there will be attempts to repeal Caesar's agrarian reforms. As soon as his consulship ends, actually. Another serious attempt will be made in 56 BC. And, had they been successful in condemning him, his enemies would have made his entire consulship invalid.
b) Cato wasn't going to filibuster. He didn't want to swear, but Cicero and others told him that he would be of no use in exile.
• 49:01 – Cam: "And Bibulus does call the Senate to order and makes a complaint about Caesar's behavior, tries to get support to have Caesar denounced and removed from the consulship."
I know they're referencing Goldsworthy who writes that Bibulus hoped to strip Caesar of his office, as was done to Lepidus in 78 BC. But that's wrong. Lepidus served his year as consul just fine, and afterwards he became a proconsul. But then he joined the rebellion in Etruria, and so the Senate stripped him of his proconsular imperium.
The Senate couldn't remove a consul from office. If Bibulus urged them to pass the senatus consultum ultimum, it was so that he could oppose Caesar more firmly. With the SCU in force, Bibulus could use armed force.
• 49:53 – Cam: "And rather than it being called 'the consulship of Caesar and Bibulus,' it was called 'the consulship of Julius and Caesar.' [...]"
Ray: "And you have to remember that back then they didn't use numbers like we do. . . Each year was called the year of the consul of A and B. And they've remembered them in order, that's how they did their years. And so for that year a lot of people did say, 'It was Gaius and Julius.' The year of the 'consulship of Gaius and Julius,' cause Bibulus just stayed home."
a) Ray got the name wrong. It's "the consulship of Julius and Caesar," like Cam says.
b) The year still goes by the names of Caesar and Bibulus in the inscriptions. "Julius and Caesar" was just a joke at the time.
• 50:47 – Ray: "Lucullus is an old grizzled bear. He was around during the time of Sulla. . . And he fought in the East against Mithridates and he raked up a huge fortune in the East, so even though he’s an older guy, he's got a lot of dignitas, he's got a lot of auctoritas. And he spoke out against Caesar after the bill was passed. And again just like when Caesar lost it against Cato, he loses it against Catulus [Ray's slip]. And he gets in the man's face and he screams and yells, and he threatens him, he brings up conscriptions, he brings up all the things he's gonna do to this man. And this is a man who fought, he was a general, he was a commander, he was certainly a tough guy. And by the time Caesar's done, Lucullus is on his knees or whatever, on the floor, begging Caesar for forgiveness for having spoke up."
a) Lucullus spoke (quite passionately) against the ratification of Pompey's Eastern settlements, because it meant that all of his own acts were annulled. He's been opposing it since Pompey returned from the East.
b) Suetonius doesn't say that Caesar was screaming at Lucullus. Lucullus most likely recounted all the great things he'd done in the East that Pompey's acts now overrode. In reply, Caesar recited all of Lucullus' misconducts (real or imagined, it's up to you), which greatly terrified Lucullus. He probably didn't even need to raise his voice.
c) Falling on one's knees (or even hugging the knees of another person) wasn't as shocking to the ancients as it is to us. People do that often in ancient sources, even in the Senate.
• 53:15 – Cam: "We've talked about Servilia, mother of Brutus. Caesar is still apparently deeply in love with her, they're still continuing what turns out to be a life-long illicit relationship."
The first record of their affair dates to 63 BC, when both of them were in their late 30s.
• 54:05 – Cam: "He [Caesar] marries Calpurnia, daughter of Lucius Calpurnius Piso, who was favored to be the consul the next year. And whilst that may sound cold and calculated to our modern sensibilities, apparently, very happy marriage for the remainder of their lives together."
a) In the Roman Republic, marriages were political alliances. Some couples were also in love (like Pompey and Julia) or grew to love each other, but first and foremost, they were political alliances. But it's not like this was unique to Roman society or ancient times. Marriages of convenience were common throughout the ages.
b) Caesar needed a sympathetic successor to protect his legislations.
c) "Very happy marriage" sounds like an overstatement. They got along well, but they saw very little of each other.
• 54:34 – Cam: "Remember he [Pompey] divorced his wife for, among other reasons, she was having an affair with Caesar. So, of course, if you divorce your wife, because she's having an affair with someone, who you're gonna marry next? The daughter of that someone that your wife was having an affair with. Makes perfect sense. Standard procedure. . . So now we've got Pompey is gonna get married to Caesar's daughter, Julia. Now, try and follow me here, kids. Julia was already engaged to a guy called Quintus Servilius Caepio, who, by the way, was the father of Servilia, the woman that Caesar's having an affair with, and the grandfather of Brutus. . . Caesar goes, 'Nah, it's off. It's off, she's now gonna marry Pompey.' Now, Pompey is like, 'Shit, Caepio is gonna be unhappy. I'll give you my daughter, Pompeia, to be his wife.' So, now we got Caepio happy. However, Pompey's daughter Pompeia was engaged to marry Faustus Sulla. . . What does he [Faustus Sulla] do? We don't know."
It's not even half as complicated as Cam makes it out to be.
a) The claim that Caesar slept with Pompey's wife most likely derives from the edicts published against the triumvirs by their enemies. Personally, I think it's bullshit.
b) Julia's fiancée wasn't Servilia's father! He died in 90 BC. Caesar was only 10 years old in 90 BC.
b) "So, again, Bibulus turns to the crowd and he says, 'I still feel the way I do. That this is not a good time. It's a very good piece of legislation, but now is not a good time.'"
All Cassius Dio says is that Bibulus "attempted to speak in opposition to Caesar."
c) "And right in the middle of this, which should've been his moment, someone dumps a basket of shit all over his head."
Plutarch is the only source for this, and he says that it happened when Bibulus was on his way to the Forum. And that it was Pompey's veterans who did it. Apparently, it was an attempt to stall Bibulus because he intended to announce bad omens and he had to do it before the assembly started. We don't know if Caesar was even aware that they're gonna do it. Maybe Pompey just assured him that his men would stall Bibulus, without going into details on how they're gonna do it.
d) Latin words for "shit" are merda, stercus, fimum.
e) "no one was killed during this melee. And if you think about it, how many people died when Gaius Marius lost it in the end, how many people died when Sulla was dictator with the proscriptions."
Did Ray just compare a brawl to the civil war? If he really had to compare it to something, the cases of Tiberius and Gaius Gracchus would've been more appropriate. Those disorders resulted in a large number of deaths.
By the way, do Cam and Ray even remember Cinna? They always mention Marius alone.
f) "And then after that Bibulus goes home and he literally stares at the sky for the rest of the freaking year."
Not exactly. Bibulus held a Senate meeting where he probably urged the senators to pass the senatus consultum ultimum. It didn't work, and he retired to his house.
g) "And so he's gonna literally sit home and sulk for the rest of the year."
It's not so simple. Every time Caesar would do something, Bibulus would send a message, saying he saw "bad omens," which meant that all public business had to close down. And this is where it gets tricky... According to the established procedure, you had to make these announcements in person, at the Popular Assembly meeting. Written proclamations were of questionable validity, so Caesar ignored him. But the opposing side thought otherwise... The same with Bibulus' self-imposed incarceration. On the one hand, nobody forced him to sit at home. On the other hand, they could use it to paint him as a victim of his colleague's tyranny. Basically, it could all be twisted this or that way in the courts.
• 48:24 – Cam: "Interestingly, this new law also came with a clause that required every senator to take an oath to abide by the clauses and not to try and repeal it down the track. And if they did try and do that, they will get exiled. So that's one way of making your laws stick. [...]"
Ray: "Yeah, they had to. But Cato was going to filibuster again, but Cicero told him to shut up."
a) It's been done before. For example, Saturninus' land bill had a clause like that.
Despite this clause, there will be attempts to repeal Caesar's agrarian reforms. As soon as his consulship ends, actually. Another serious attempt will be made in 56 BC. And, had they been successful in condemning him, his enemies would have made his entire consulship invalid.
b) Cato wasn't going to filibuster. He didn't want to swear, but Cicero and others told him that he would be of no use in exile.
• 49:01 – Cam: "And Bibulus does call the Senate to order and makes a complaint about Caesar's behavior, tries to get support to have Caesar denounced and removed from the consulship."
I know they're referencing Goldsworthy who writes that Bibulus hoped to strip Caesar of his office, as was done to Lepidus in 78 BC. But that's wrong. Lepidus served his year as consul just fine, and afterwards he became a proconsul. But then he joined the rebellion in Etruria, and so the Senate stripped him of his proconsular imperium.
The Senate couldn't remove a consul from office. If Bibulus urged them to pass the senatus consultum ultimum, it was so that he could oppose Caesar more firmly. With the SCU in force, Bibulus could use armed force.
• 49:53 – Cam: "And rather than it being called 'the consulship of Caesar and Bibulus,' it was called 'the consulship of Julius and Caesar.' [...]"
Ray: "And you have to remember that back then they didn't use numbers like we do. . . Each year was called the year of the consul of A and B. And they've remembered them in order, that's how they did their years. And so for that year a lot of people did say, 'It was Gaius and Julius.' The year of the 'consulship of Gaius and Julius,' cause Bibulus just stayed home."
a) Ray got the name wrong. It's "the consulship of Julius and Caesar," like Cam says.
b) The year still goes by the names of Caesar and Bibulus in the inscriptions. "Julius and Caesar" was just a joke at the time.
• 50:47 – Ray: "Lucullus is an old grizzled bear. He was around during the time of Sulla. . . And he fought in the East against Mithridates and he raked up a huge fortune in the East, so even though he’s an older guy, he's got a lot of dignitas, he's got a lot of auctoritas. And he spoke out against Caesar after the bill was passed. And again just like when Caesar lost it against Cato, he loses it against Catulus [Ray's slip]. And he gets in the man's face and he screams and yells, and he threatens him, he brings up conscriptions, he brings up all the things he's gonna do to this man. And this is a man who fought, he was a general, he was a commander, he was certainly a tough guy. And by the time Caesar's done, Lucullus is on his knees or whatever, on the floor, begging Caesar for forgiveness for having spoke up."
a) Lucullus spoke (quite passionately) against the ratification of Pompey's Eastern settlements, because it meant that all of his own acts were annulled. He's been opposing it since Pompey returned from the East.
b) Suetonius doesn't say that Caesar was screaming at Lucullus. Lucullus most likely recounted all the great things he'd done in the East that Pompey's acts now overrode. In reply, Caesar recited all of Lucullus' misconducts (real or imagined, it's up to you), which greatly terrified Lucullus. He probably didn't even need to raise his voice.
c) Falling on one's knees (or even hugging the knees of another person) wasn't as shocking to the ancients as it is to us. People do that often in ancient sources, even in the Senate.
• 53:15 – Cam: "We've talked about Servilia, mother of Brutus. Caesar is still apparently deeply in love with her, they're still continuing what turns out to be a life-long illicit relationship."
The first record of their affair dates to 63 BC, when both of them were in their late 30s.
• 54:05 – Cam: "He [Caesar] marries Calpurnia, daughter of Lucius Calpurnius Piso, who was favored to be the consul the next year. And whilst that may sound cold and calculated to our modern sensibilities, apparently, very happy marriage for the remainder of their lives together."
a) In the Roman Republic, marriages were political alliances. Some couples were also in love (like Pompey and Julia) or grew to love each other, but first and foremost, they were political alliances. But it's not like this was unique to Roman society or ancient times. Marriages of convenience were common throughout the ages.
b) Caesar needed a sympathetic successor to protect his legislations.
c) "Very happy marriage" sounds like an overstatement. They got along well, but they saw very little of each other.
• 54:34 – Cam: "Remember he [Pompey] divorced his wife for, among other reasons, she was having an affair with Caesar. So, of course, if you divorce your wife, because she's having an affair with someone, who you're gonna marry next? The daughter of that someone that your wife was having an affair with. Makes perfect sense. Standard procedure. . . So now we've got Pompey is gonna get married to Caesar's daughter, Julia. Now, try and follow me here, kids. Julia was already engaged to a guy called Quintus Servilius Caepio, who, by the way, was the father of Servilia, the woman that Caesar's having an affair with, and the grandfather of Brutus. . . Caesar goes, 'Nah, it's off. It's off, she's now gonna marry Pompey.' Now, Pompey is like, 'Shit, Caepio is gonna be unhappy. I'll give you my daughter, Pompeia, to be his wife.' So, now we got Caepio happy. However, Pompey's daughter Pompeia was engaged to marry Faustus Sulla. . . What does he [Faustus Sulla] do? We don't know."
It's not even half as complicated as Cam makes it out to be.
a) The claim that Caesar slept with Pompey's wife most likely derives from the edicts published against the triumvirs by their enemies. Personally, I think it's bullshit.
"The main "evidence" in the case of Mucia, for instance, was the fact that Pompey divorced her. Yet Pompey never gave a reason in public for his action and it was left to one of the usual suspects, the Elder Curio, again to exploit the gossip in an attempt to split Pompey from Caesar in 59 BC." – Jeremy Paterson
b) Julia's fiancée wasn't Servilia's father! He died in 90 BC. Caesar was only 10 years old in 90 BC.
Julia's fiancée was Servilia's half-brother. But it's worth noting that Caesar's connection to Caepio had little to do with Servilia. Servilia and her half-brother were raised in different households, and there was no close bond between them.
c) Plutarch says that Pompey offered his daughter to Caepio. But whether it's true or not, Pompeia married Faustus Sulla as planned.
d) Caepio married Hortensia, daughter of the famous orator Quintus Hortensius.
• 58:09 – Cam: "She [Julia] was a teenager, he [Pompey] was 47. But it worked out apparently."
a) We don't know Julia's age. Roman girls were usually married off between the ages of 14 and 16. Most historians date Julia's birth to 76 BC, judging by Caesar's absences overseas. That would make her 17 at this time. But Suetonius implies that she was born c. 82. In that case, Julia was in her early 20s when she married Pompey.
b) Pompey was 46.
• 58:50 – Cam: "He's [Pompey] got what he wants and it can't be repealed, because you're not allowed to repeal it or you'll go into exile."
The clause will not stop them. They will try to repeal Caesar's agrarian reforms later on.
• 59:52 – Cam: "They [the triumvirs] did a deal with Ptolemy XII of Egypt. Ptolemy XII is the illegitimate son of Ptolemy XI. He was nicknamed 'Auletes' or the 'Flute-player,' which I'm not exactly sure what kind of flute he was playing. Deeply unpopular with the Egyptians, but he had paid a massive bribe to Pompey and Crassus and so was formally recognized and got the support of the Roman Republic during Caesar's year as consul. There is a suggestion, Suetonius suggests that it was about 36 million denarii, was the bribe that he paid."
a) His nickname had no double meaning. He really could play the flute.
b) The sources don't mention Crassus, only Caesar and Pompey. Ptolemy most likely gave them a promissory note and paid part of it throughout the years. Let's say Pompey and Caesar split it in half, so that each would receive 18 million. But Plutarch says that Ptolemy still owned Caesar 17 and a half million by the time of his [Ptolemy's] death. If that's true, Caesar didn't get his half.
By the way, Ptolemy XII was Cleopatra's father. In 57 BC, he will be expelled, and he will come to Rome. Pompey will send Gabinius to re-install Ptolemy on the Egyptian throne by force.
• 01:01:05 – Ray: "I don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly before Caesar married... I'm drawing blank right now who he married, they say that Servilia wanted to get married and he said, 'Well, I can't marry you, because you're known as non-faithful wife, even though it was with me. But, hey, here's a pearl worth 1,5 million denarii.'"
This is Colleen McCullough's "Caesar's Women". Except for the last sentence, that's Ray's. In the novel, he gives her a pearl for a different reason.
Episode 11
c) Plutarch says that Pompey offered his daughter to Caepio. But whether it's true or not, Pompeia married Faustus Sulla as planned.
d) Caepio married Hortensia, daughter of the famous orator Quintus Hortensius.
• 58:09 – Cam: "She [Julia] was a teenager, he [Pompey] was 47. But it worked out apparently."
a) We don't know Julia's age. Roman girls were usually married off between the ages of 14 and 16. Most historians date Julia's birth to 76 BC, judging by Caesar's absences overseas. That would make her 17 at this time. But Suetonius implies that she was born c. 82. In that case, Julia was in her early 20s when she married Pompey.
b) Pompey was 46.
• 58:50 – Cam: "He's [Pompey] got what he wants and it can't be repealed, because you're not allowed to repeal it or you'll go into exile."
The clause will not stop them. They will try to repeal Caesar's agrarian reforms later on.
• 59:52 – Cam: "They [the triumvirs] did a deal with Ptolemy XII of Egypt. Ptolemy XII is the illegitimate son of Ptolemy XI. He was nicknamed 'Auletes' or the 'Flute-player,' which I'm not exactly sure what kind of flute he was playing. Deeply unpopular with the Egyptians, but he had paid a massive bribe to Pompey and Crassus and so was formally recognized and got the support of the Roman Republic during Caesar's year as consul. There is a suggestion, Suetonius suggests that it was about 36 million denarii, was the bribe that he paid."
a) His nickname had no double meaning. He really could play the flute.
"Now all the kings after the third Ptolemy, being corrupted by luxurious living, have administered the affairs of government badly, but worst of all the fourth, seventh, and the last, Auletes, who, apart from his general licentiousness, practiced the accompaniment of choruses with the flute." – Strabo
b) The sources don't mention Crassus, only Caesar and Pompey. Ptolemy most likely gave them a promissory note and paid part of it throughout the years. Let's say Pompey and Caesar split it in half, so that each would receive 18 million. But Plutarch says that Ptolemy still owned Caesar 17 and a half million by the time of his [Ptolemy's] death. If that's true, Caesar didn't get his half.
By the way, Ptolemy XII was Cleopatra's father. In 57 BC, he will be expelled, and he will come to Rome. Pompey will send Gabinius to re-install Ptolemy on the Egyptian throne by force.
• 01:01:05 – Ray: "I don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly before Caesar married... I'm drawing blank right now who he married, they say that Servilia wanted to get married and he said, 'Well, I can't marry you, because you're known as non-faithful wife, even though it was with me. But, hey, here's a pearl worth 1,5 million denarii.'"
This is Colleen McCullough's "Caesar's Women". Except for the last sentence, that's Ray's. In the novel, he gives her a pearl for a different reason.
Episode 11
Comments
Post a Comment